Post two entries on the weblog each week, with your own ideas and reactions to Dante's Inferno or your responses to another student's entry. Always include your screen name in your posting. For an original posting, include the quotation from The Inferno with its canto and line numbers at the beginning of your remarks. For a response, include the other student's screen name, and the date and time of their comment.
Welcome to the 2008 Inferno Weblog. Use this as a place to discuss questions and comments about the book. Be sure to note Canto and line number for specific questions, in order for your classmates to better answer.
After hitting the comments button, go down and click on Name/URL. Type in your name that you have given Mrs. Tully, no URL is needed. This will keep the boards anonymous, but make sure you get a grade for posting.
First comment! Also I keep trying to figure out what Plutus does and whre he came from. i know now he lives with the sullen, but is he some sort of guard like minos or the other guard who I can't remember right now... with the tail... so what is he?
Speaking of the sullen. I think the fact that the sullen AND wrathful were together means that the 5th level of hell was reserved for the constantly angry. The only difference is the wrathful took action while the sullen fumed silently to themselves.
yah plutus and cerberus and i think Medusa is guard of the gate maybe im not sure... oh and i agree with you bias about the anger thing oh and ty achilles so was that it? 8-10 i did that yesterday so yah darn so i got minos wrong on the test... so whos Dido anyone know?
"May you weep and wail to all eternity, for I know you, hell-dog, filthy as you are" (VIII37-38). ORIGINAL POST. I find it fairly interesting how Dante, who at first was so full of sadness and pity when he came across the damned souls, suddenly becomes derailed and verbally abuses them. Then I also found how Virgil reacted to be noteworthy. He praises Dante lavishly and laughs with joy. Does anyone know the reason for Dante's change in heart? It was so sudden that I'm utterly confused by it. And then Virgil's response, why was he so utterly happy? Was it just because the souls need punishment for their sins and deserve what they're getting? Ah, I'm confused.
To Cassius: I think that Dante's change of heart was more gradual than you think. If you remember he swooned at the Second Circle (the Carnal), only cried at the Third Circle (Gluttons), felt relatively neutral at the Fourth (Hoarders and Wasters), and even worsens the pain of Filippo Argenti in the Fifth Circle (Wrathful and Sullen). Concerning Virgil's happiness at Dante abusing Filippo, you have to remember that these souls chose their fate; they treated others how they're being treated in Hell. It goes with that Symbolic Retribution thing.
To Uchiha Itachi (6:16 PM): I think that the Furies would usually only count as inhabitants of Dis, which houses Fiends and Furies (see p. 48), but seeing as they're trying to scare away/kill Dante, unlike the fallen angels, I guess you could categorize them as guards.
"Ah, what scorn breathed from that angel-presence. He reached the gate of dis and with a wand he waved it open, for there was no resistance" (On page 90). My question is whether the wand is supposed to be portrayed like a wand from Harry Potter or if it's symbolizing anything other thing in particular. Also, if the wand is in fact supposed to be "HP-like", wouldn't this contradict his catholic beliefs because in the bible, it clearly states that sorcery is prohibited?
"Ah, what scorn breathed from that angel-presence. He reached the gate of dis and with a wand he waved it open, for there was no resistance"
I think that the wand would be symbolic, since you made the point that if it was a sorcery wand, that would completely contradict church beliefs, however, this IS Hell, so everything is not what the church would believe to be in heaven,But if it is symbolic, the question is, what does it symbolize?
It's not necessarily symbolic, it probably just a wand, but not in the "HP" sense of the word. Another definition of a wand is "a rod or staff carried as an emblem of one's office or authority." So it could just be something given to residents of hell with authority so that they can enter and leave the city of Dis at their leisure.
I think that the wand just simply reveals the power of God (through the messenger) over Hell's inhabitant's. This shows the power of Good/Evil and you will notice how the rejected angels "breathe scorn" at the messenger, yet are powerless against him and can only sulk and pout. :)
Also, I don't think it has anything to do with witchcraft/HP. I think Dante's main focus was on the power of God over hell and the sinfulness and horrors of hell.
Minos is the one who determines what circle each dead soul goes to. He is often called the "Judge of the Dead" << I heard that somewhere.. He judges which circle a soul goes to by his tail. However many times he wraps it around is the circle that soul shall go to. "There Minos sits, grinning,grotesque, and hale./ He examines each lost soul as it arrives /and delivers his verdict with his coiling tail." (Canto V, Lines 4-6). As to who he wraps his tail around, I'm not sure. Is he wrapping his tail around himself or the soul of the person he's judging? Any answer to this would be greatly appreciated.
"And so at last we came /to foot of a Great Tower that has no name." (Canto VII, Page 76, Lines 130-131). Here Dante refers to a Great Tower that has no name but it's written as Great Tower being capitalized, as if it was proper. Also, back on page 48, with the map, the tower is shown as being named simply "The Great Tower". I'm not sure if Dante just refers to it as the Great Tower just with capitalization or what? It seems contradictory in my opinion. Also, does anyone know why on the top of page 76 it says "Canto VIII" even though it's the end of Canto VII? Typo maybe?
About the heavenly messenger, why does he possess so much power? It looks like to me that if you make it too heaven you are blessed with lots of power because you see in canto 9 page 90-91 the messenger all high and mighty."Ah, what scorn breathed from the Angle-presence! He reached the gates of Dis and with a wand he waved it open, for there was no resistance." From this it looks like he is very powerful, but even though why doesnt any of the creatures or anybody at all from hell mess with the messenger?
to cassius: about dante's reaction to seeing the damned soul, the soul he is speaking to is filippo argenti,who belgoned to the adimari family, who were bitter political rivals of dante, and so his comment to him in hell was probably an insult to the adimari family. also, christ is a symbol of perfection to dante the poet, and he might believe that a complete rejection of all that is evil will purify the soul, so dantes scornful words/treatment of the soul, which symbolizes a sin, is a rejection of something evil, which will bring his soul closer to that image of christ. (there is a better explanation in the the notes after canto VIII)
I find it interesting yet cruel that anything opposing or not relating to god refers to or is put in hell. For example, in canato XIII in the notes, it explains about muslim mosques.... a mosque would seem the perversion of a church, the impious counterpart of the House of God, just as aSatan is God';s impious counterpart. His city is therefore architecturally appropriate. I find it annoying that Dante slams other religions, although it was appropriate at the time of his life. Probably because of the after shock of the crusades. I would be interested in any other comments people have on my philosophy. ( oh and uchiha itachi, stop asking for the homework, thats why ms. tully gave a planner check.)
Francesca, although it would seem her sins are more appropriately represented in the lower circles of Hell, is placed in circle 2, the carnal. This is a representation of the choice dante the poet has in his work. He chose to put Francesca in the circle of lesser punishment even though her greater sin was maybe more adapt to a lower circle's punishment. However, in general, i believe the sinners are punished for their greatest sin. I question, although i know dante the poet and dante the pilgrim are seperate, is this favoritism for francesca reveal a weakness implying Dante was more likely to be acused of this sin (lust)himself?
No, I don't believe so. Dante explains that her crimes were those of passion. The quote "The other is dido; faithless to the ashes of sichaeus, she killed herself for love." (Canto 5 p.59 line 61-62) explains that Dido's suicide was out of love. What defines the carnal is their loss of control to love, not necessarily what the actions as a result were.
To Junie B. Jones Upon further reading, Later cantos reveal that Dante does eventually go back to pitying the souls of the damned in lower circles, and virgil has to scold him from doing so. Dante's (the pilgrim) emotion towards the souls is not the linear pattern you propose.
what exactly is plutus? The notes call him the king of the under world (like pluto) and Lucipher, but virgil calls him a "wolf of hell" (canto 7 line 7)
HAHA sorry for the inconstantcy anonymous/pooky are pookie
...but i got conformation on the minos and his tale, he DOES in fact wrap his tail around himself its says at this website: http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle2.html#minos
Agh sorry for the typo before gosh yah i accidentally put and instead of any -.- sorry for any confusion.
Thank you for answering my question junie b jones about the furies, umm another question, what does Plutus look like continuing from Pookies question (appearance-wise), oh and Speaker for the dead you asked me to "stop asking for the homework"I only asked once since i lost the paper and couldn't find it that day (luckily i found it after some time, aka after i posted this).
Does anyone accually know the historical background of the white/black guelfs, Ghibilenes (sorry if i spelled wrong Im using a horrible keyboard at some place in the middle of nowhere...) and why did Dante decided to be a white Guelf/when did he become a white Guelf?
Post 1:13 AM (I KNOW IM CRAZY, >.<) 3-01-08 happy March 1st!
I looked at some pictures of Plutus online and he looked human kind of, but I'm not sure if its accurate can someone clarify/support/disprove that Plutus looks like a human?
In Response to Uchiha Itachi In the 12th century the Guelfs and Ghibellines were political parties in Germany and Italy who disagreed on one main issue. Merchant class citizens who wanted a constitutional government represented the Guelfs. The Guelfs had the support of the Pope. The Ghibellines however were aristocratic and therefore didn't support the church (pope) rather they supported the emperor. The Ghibellines banished the Guelfs in 1249 when Fredrick II came to their aid. Ten years later the Guelfs returned and took over. Then in 1300 the Guelfs split in two. The Blacks who supported Pope Boniface VIII and the Whites who opposed him. Dante became interested in politics in 1295 and disliked Boniface VIII. This is why Dante became a white Guelf.
"May you weep and wail to all eternity, for I know you, hell-dog, filthy as you are" (VIII.37-38). In this quote, Dante verbally abuses one in the swamp of the 5th circle. However, knowing that Dante is indeed Catholic, why would he judge one when it clearly states in the bible, "Judge not lest he be judged." If he is judging people in this manner, wouldn't he be concerned with his own actions being judged with the same severity? Any opinions?
Tink, you raise an interesting question. There do seem to be conflicting points in Dante's Inferno and the Bible. But we must also remember that the Inferno was influenced by his era, politically and culturally. These impact his writings more than the literal scriptures in the bible itself. In response directly to Tink's example, the soul has technically already been judged by god, and therefore can be judged. It is possible to look at Dante's scorn as agreeing with God's divine punishment for that soul. When Virgil says "Blessed be she who bore you,..."(VIII,43), Virgil is praising Dante's position of cruelty towards the damned. On page 85, it explains that the same words were said by Luke to Christ, so Dante's use of it here emphasizes that the cruelty to the damned is in fact a way of purging ones own soul. In our modern culture we would look down upon such behavior.
In my opinion tink when it says that in the bible i think it means the undamned since the ones in hell are there because they chose that and wouldnt be equal to those who are still alive and that those who are damned wouldnt really count as people nut more as souls stuck in Hell eternally and that got what they got and since they have no logic/human reason/etc they would be more like machines that people
IF ANYONE WANTS TO DISPROVE THIS PLEASE BE MY GUEST ^.^ oh and this isnt to disprove anyone, sorry if i ended up attacking anyones opinion on this.
thanks Thetisthegodess (typo?) for clarifying the black Guelf/white guelf thing but question what/who did the white Guelfs support?
"I am led by him who waits there, and whom perhaps your Guido held in scorn." (X.62-63)
I understand that Cavalcanti mistook this and thought Dante meant Guido had died already. Since this is not what Dante meant, what did he mean by this last phrase? Is it possible, or likely, that he thought Guido to be an opposition to Human Reason? Was this an insult towards Guido? This is confusing to me because Guido was a poet and friend of Dante
What Dante is literally saying is that he is being led by Virgil who guido had disrepected, disliked, etc. he is saying that by guido disrespecting human reason, he cannot get to heaven/paradiso. i think dante was more stating the fact that guido did this, not insulting him but gut guido did marry the daughter of a ghibilline leader so you never know.
Dido was the Queen of Carthage and she fell in love with Aeneas, even though she was married. When Aeneas left her to found Rome she stabbed herself and died.
Minos, a monster, is known as the judge of Hell. He wraps his tail around himself to determine a soul's place in hell. (ex: if he wraps his tail around him four times, the soul belongs in the fourth circle: with the hoarders and the wasters).
Tink, I think that possible spending more time in hell changes a person. Or maybe Dante the Pilgim is differnt. Also I think its what God planned for those people in Hell and that nobody in there can receive one bit of grace so it wouldn't really be bad for Dante to critcize indiviuduals in hell.
I do not really understand what Brunetto Latino means when he says, "the sweet fig is not meant to bear its fruit beside the bitter sorb-tree." In the notes, it said that a sorb-tree is a species of tart apple, but what does this statement toward Dante mean?
Something I don't understand is why Lucifer is being punished in the ninth circle. "The Emperor of the Universe of Pain jutted his upper chest above the ice." In every other version I've heard of Hell, the Devil is the head of Hell and makes the punishments for everyone else. Is Dante's version just another way of looking at Hell, or am I misunderstanding what's really going on in the last circle with Lucifer?
In Canto XIII, Dante speaks to one of the trees, Pier Dele Vigne. He says in lines 76-79 "If either of you return to the world, speak for me, to vindicate in the memory of men one who lies prostrate from the blows of Envy."
In this, He is speaking of Envy as a woman he was jealous of, right?
"the sweet fig is not meant to bear its fruit beside the bitter sorb-tree." Canto XV Lines 5
Mercutio, Brunetto explains this as a cause for the fact that, "good works are your enemy." He means that opposites are not meant to go together and do not work well. In relation to Dante, Brunetto says earlier how he thought that heaven was well disposed towards Dante. Perhaps this is the opposition to the fact that they are meeting together in hell.
"the sweet fig is not meant to bear its fruit beside the bitter sorb-tree." Canto XV Lines 5
Mercutio, Brunetto explains this as a cause for the fact that, "good works are your enemy." He means that opposites are not meant to go together and do not work well. In relation to Dante, Brunetto says earlier how he thought that heaven was well disposed towards Dante. Perhaps this is the opposition to the fact that they are meeting together in hell.
"the sweet fig is not meant to bear its fruit beside the bitter sorb-tree." Canto XV Lines 5
Mercutio, Brunetto explains this as a cause for the fact that, "good works are your enemy." He means that opposites are not meant to go together and do not work well. In relation to Dante, Brunetto says earlier how he thought that heaven was well disposed towards Dante. Perhaps this is the opposition to the fact that they are meeting together in hell.
okay, this is kinda late, but to uchiha itachi. Well, Dido, wasn't related to Francesca. She was Aneas' lover. When Aneas had to leave her to found the future site of Rome, she became so upset that she killed herself. She is one of the lustfull people in hell (i can't remember the name. doesn't it start with a C or something?) Anyhoo, and Minos was the guy who told people what circle of hell they had to go to. Mkay. ttfn =]
To Zeus (2/3/08 12:10 PM): You have a good question, and I'm not really sure I have an answer, but I think that the reason why Lucifer is at the very deepest circle of Hell is because he tried to overthrow God in a struggle for power. I don’t really think that Lucifer is the Devil, from what I understand (and I don’t remember where I heard this), Lucifer was an angel but grew jealous of the Lord, resulting in his banishment from Heaven. I think only then was Lucifer named Satan.
Dante the Poets hell was his vision of what hell shoul be like. And if I am not mistaken his version came before the whole "flaming underworld ruled by a red dude with horns" we now associate hell with.
so, did all of the people in Dante's era associate freezing and cold to hell as opposed to firey demons with curely horns? If so, where might have the firey-ness come in?
In response to what Menidict Bias (2/28/08 3:25pm) said, I think that the sullen aren't quite the same as the wrathful. I thought the sullen were always sad and depressed. Where as the wrathful were agressive and angry. At first I didn't understand why they were in the same circle (Canto VII)but I believe the similarity is in their symbolic retribution. They both are sentenced to the same disgusting slime. It is more obvious that the slime can symbolize the evil of the wrathful. But, the sullen are stuck underneath it because they could not accept Divine Illumination. So my point is, I think the similarity between the two is their inhabitility to appreciate God. They both can't see past their anger or their sadness to embrace God.
you prove an excellent point but according to sictionary.com sullen is: "showing irritation or ill humor by a gloomy silence or reserve" which is'nt quite sad or depressed, but more..i'm not quite sure how to put it...but i guess they are angry in the inside. :\
((Wow, lots of Naruto names, ne? Maybe I should have picked someone from another anime... XD))
"...Their wings are wide, their feet clawed, their huge bellies covered with feathers, their necks and faces human. They croak eternally in the unnatural trees." (Canto XIII lines 13-15)
So... This would be describing Harpies, which were "over-seers of the damned". According to Inferno the harpies would feed on the souls of the Suicides, who would be encased in thorny trees. Apparently the harpies were all bird exept for their head in Inferno. Since the Suicides destroyed their own bodies, they are not allowed a human form, so the harpies feed on them... This grotesquely makes sense to me.
In response to why lucifer is in the ninth circle: In Dantes time as cassius said, lucifer was seen as god's left hand man in heaven (that is why the left hand was seen as evil for so many years) and as he grew jealous of gods power, he and other angels decided to overthrow god. God Created the inferno to imprison those angels, and humans who had the evil qualities like the angels. lucifer was the leader and most wicked of the group and was sent to suffer the most in the inferno. The story like so many others in history took on characteristics of other religions, stories, ideas, etc from many sources and it molded into the story of the red guy with horns and a trident that toutures you in hell. Lucifier is not that guy but another sinner getting punishment.
The "firey-ness" came in to the understanding of Hell through Jesus. In the New Testament, Jesus says:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" (Mark 9:43)
Whether Jesus means a physical fire, like those on earth, or if the fire was an analogy for the type of suffering is not clear. The usual interpretation, such as in The Inferno, tend to explain the fires to be real. However, later in the New Testament, there is mention of a "...lake of fire..." (Revelation 20:14), which further supports the idea of a physical fire.
Carmen 8:12 PM, March 2, 2008 Response to Uchiha Itachi, 3/1/08 12:13 AM
Dante’s Plutus is deformed for his own purposes. I think you are right about Plutus having some resemblance to humans. I also think he looks part animal. The guards of the circles seem to be monstrous. Plutus, who guards the fourth circle, is shown the same way. Even though he is the God of Wealth in mythology, he is illustrated to us like this to show the severity of the punishments in the fourth circle for the prodigal and the greedy. I think Dante uses this technique for all the guards of hell, like Minos (judge of souls, who resides in the 2nd second circle).
Woot Kisame hooray my partner in Crime (only people who know what Naruto is will know what im talking about).
Thank you everyone who has Answered my Questions, (oh and I love the names of some of you people and hate some names and think some are funny) so Dido had nothing to do with Francesca right (darn i got that wrong on the test -.-)
Thanks Matilda, and Bilbo (love both your names ^.^) but yah it was a little late, and Minos was covered, but thank you for the help clarifying about Dido!
Oh and I agree with your Idea Kakashi about the Hell changing people with the Tink/etc (how many Naruto people are there? Itachi[me], Kisame, Kakashi/Takashi (i think))
Thank you Carmen for Clarifying the info on Plutus (>'.')>
Does anyone know who the Deleted Comment was lol!
SORRY THIS IS SO LONG ITS JUST THAT I WANT TO COMMENT EVERYDAY AT LEAST ONCE AND I ENDED UP GOING SOMEWHERE SO I MISSED A LOT AND BY THE TIME I GOT BACK THERE WERE LIKE 30 POSTS COMMENTING ON ME SO SORRY FOR THE WASTE OF SPACE!
How many different Screen Names have posted so far?
Question about the Essay on Francesca/the 4 thing when is it due? , and a question on the book does anyone know is Virgil dead and guiding Dante, or is he Alive, is Virgil a Citizen of Hell or Heaven or is he like Dante a wanderer who just went through some part of hell but ran away to the dark wood and helped Dante, what is Virgil i know hes Human reason metaphorically but what is he?
Sorry this is so late! But 6th comment Achilles question on the Lustful right and who guards, the answer to the lustful's guard, appearantly Minos is first mentioned here, but im not sure about if he Guards the Lustful
In Cantos 12 circle 7 when it says the part about the Minotaur what does Virgil/Dante/the Minotaur do during that time that lets them run does it bite itself and since the Minotaur was acting unintelligently were they able to get past? i got kinda confused when i read it...
(Ive posted aprox 2-4 comments a day lol Woot XD, from names of some people i can guess who some are, but i wont say who i think/guess, but if you think you know who I am and think my comments rock please find me at school and tell me the password which is Chidori)
IGNORE THE SENTENCE IN PARENTHESIS UNLESS YOU ENJOY READING MY COMMENTS LOL
ugh i write too much random stuff after my important questions and get off topic to many times ill limit my randomness after this comment...
"Reader judge for yourself, how each black word/ fell on my ears to sink my heart:/ i lost hope of returning to the world" (Cant VIII, lines 91-93). umm is Dante's addressing the audience (us) directly or am i missing something??
"where is my son? why is he not with you?" (Canto X, line 60) Why is Cavalcante expecting Guido to be with Dante?...again, am i missing something?
"And shortly after, I saw the loathsome spirit/ so mangled by a swarm of muddy wraiths/ that to this day I praise and thank God for it." (Canto 8, lines 55-58) This passage confused me because I don't really understand how Dante could be so rude to this particular spirit. In every other circle he seems to show some interest in what the spirits have to say, but when Filippo tries to talk to him, Dante acts very rudely (and Virgil approves of it!) It does mention in the Notes that they were enemies, but I just don't understand why Dante and Virgil would act this way.
"My face had paled to a mask of cowardice" (IX,1) I am still not to sure who Plutus circle 5 or Cerebus circle 3 are, and what the meaning of them being included in Dantes inferno?
And also i am not to sure why Dante got in a quarrel with Farinata, i guess i could not really understand Ms. Tully in class Friday!?! Not that she was confusing i just didnt understand her theorybehind all of this. >_< :p
“It falls into the wood, wherever fortune flings it, it strikes root, and there it sprouts.”(VIII 7-9) At first it seems strange that the Suicides’ punishment is to be turned into trees. It does not seem to fit the usual patterns of punishments. But it definitely fits the crime. They removed their bodies from earth, so their souls for the rest of eternity will be unable to take the human form. In committing suicide, these souls denied their God-given immortality and confirmed that they did not want their bodies. Their punishment fulfills their wish only now they can’t undo their mistakes.
You know what, guys? I was just reading all of these quite interesting comments and was suddenly laughing. Look at the grammar and punctuation and the use of words normally reserved for the dictionary. I think its hilarious. Frankly, if you were a complete outsider reading this, you would assume it was written by a bunch of bored college kids. Gosh, i love uhs.
P.S. I really like that Mrs. tully gives us a place to talk, anonymously, about the way we feel about all the shananagins going down in the Inferno.
Um, I'm not sure to whom Dante is addressing (though I'm not sure that's really important) but I do know the second question. When Cavalcante ask Dante why he is in hell, Dante replies it is his great journey back onto the right path. However, Cavalcante becomes a little upset and asks Dante why his journey of genius occurs without Cavalcante's son Guido. He asks if Dante presumes he is better then Guido. Dante answers simply that he is on the journey with aid from powers Guido has not seeked (meaning penance) but Cavalcante accidently thinks that Dante is saying Guido is dead and swoons back into the flames. So the short answer to your question, Pookie, is that Cavalcante was not exactly expecting Guido to be with Dante, he simply challanged Dante at first, sort of showing him that he's not better then his son. However, when Dante gives his reply, Cavalcante misinterprets it and swoons away before Dante can explain his true meaning.
Also, uchiha itachi, the fact that you post 2-4 comments a day is frankly a little sad. Mrs. Tully only expects 2 posts a WEEK, and though she said she would accept a few extras here and there asking small questions, in your case i would say sometimes being an overachiever is not good a maybe a little annoying.
"And I found I stood on the very brink of the valley called the Dolorous Abyss, the desolate chasm where rolls the thunderof Hell's eternal cry, so depthless-deep adn nebulous and dim."(4.7.) I was readinng and I underdstood what most of the levels of hell were and what the sins of the people in them were but I didn't really understand Limbo. Is Limbo a level of hell or just a waiting place for people not accepted into heaven and not sent to a lower level of hell?
I am pretty sure that Virgil is dead because he was sent by Beatrice who lives in heaven. So if he was sent by her then wouldn’t it make sense that he lives in the same place as her. I also believe that Virgil was a citizen of limbo which would be hell. “Since all of these have part in the high name the voice proclaimed, calling me Prince of Poets, the honor that they do me honors them.”( 4.91.) It also says in the intro to Canto 4 that they added him as a sixth in their group. There are only 5 names, not counting Virgil, so it makes sense that he is part of the group.
Ok well i have a little issue. Dante has a level in hell for those who commit suicide, and obviously frowns upon those who chose to mistreat their god-given body in that way. Im assuming then that Florence and Europe at that time had the same view on the issue. And yet in other context, suicide can be honorable. For instance when Brutus commited suicide before being captured in Julius Caesar, Octavian praised him and called him the only honorable conspirator. Also, in Oedipus, Jocasta commited suicide and was most likely not frowned upon.
In cantos XV, i understand that The Wood of Suicide is for those who commited suicide, but why are the tunrned into trees (how do the trees symbolize suicide.)is there a symbolism?
I don't understand the battle between the Wasters and the Hoarders in Canto 7. It compares their battle to a "surge Charybdis hurls to sea/ crashes and breaks upon its countersurge," (7.22-23). If this were so wouldn't it be one rock and they are doing a tug-0-war? Later on it says "against enormous weights..." (7.27), which would imply that they each have there own weights. I feel like having two weights being thrown at each other makes more sense, but it is hard to tell in the text. So which is it?
Virgil is dead and stays in Hell among the other Virtuous Pagans.
Virgil was sent to guide Dante through hell by Beatrice, the symbol of Divine Love, along with blessings of the three ladies: the Virgin Mary, Saint Lucia, and Rachel.
Virgil was the author of the Aeneid and a great poet. Dante thinks of him as the voice of Human Reason and as it says in the little summary before the Canto "...Dante cannot come to Divine Love unaided; Reason must lead him" (Canto 2).
umm... I think that answers all of your questions.
Has anyone else noticed how none of the dates or times match. it stills says we're in the beginning of Feb
In response to helenoftroy (2/3/08 9:36 PM), I think that because Dante is such a “hater” of Filippe, he probably just wanted to show how much he hated them. Also, he might have wanted to insult his family too. On your note about Virgil allowing this to happen, I think that he knows that as they descend through Hell, Dante is going to have less and less pity for them, so he should "start" his disapproval of the souls now. I do think however that Dante kind of over did it and took it to far in the insult.
Just on a side note, does any one have any idea why in every canto, Dante ends with only two lines as opposed to three? Does he just not have anything to say or does it secretly represent something?
Carmen 5:57 PM Response to pookie, 2/29/08 4:58 PM
Sorry, this is kinda late. I think Dante confused Plutus with Pluto. Plutus is god of wealth, so he is the perfect guard for the fourth circle. This circle is for the prodigal and the greedy. In real life, they focused on money, but in hell, they are focusing on the heavy boulders. If Dante meant Pluto, he would have placed him in the center because Pluto is the god of the Underworld. I guess Virgil calls him the Wolf of Hell, because in myths, wolves are greedy. I am not entirely sure about this, but I read about this on a book.
ummm... in canto 11 (not sure what lines) but it talks about a cliff that was knocked off when Christ died caused many earthquakes shook the earth -even hell too i guess-. Is there any symbol-whateva in there somewhere??
to mrincredible <-- wouldnt is jus be like that pic that ms tully showes us in class? no quite sure whats so sonfusing...i still think that when it reffers to the counter surge its the opposite force that the other hoarder/waster is applying to their opponent. hopefully this might clear stiff up for ya ;D
I don’t think the symbolic retribution of the suicides (Canto XV) is being stuck as a tree. In hell, the sinners have no power; they are basically doomed for eternity. So all they have is their voice, which I don’t think gives them much but nonetheless they have their voices. In life the suicides did not appreciate the gift of life; instead they caused pain to themselves. So as a tree they are only given power when they sacrifice pain. The pain would then remind them of how precious their life was, because now they have to pay a price. Ultimately their symbolic retribution is the pain of the removal of the branch, not so much that they are a tree.
In response to MrIncredible: (3/3/08 4:21 PM ), and also pookie: (3/3/08 5:13 PM)
The fight between the Hoarders and the Wasters, according to many interpretations, is described as a clash. The Hoarders and Wasters are lined up on opposing sides, with a weight, most likely a boulder. Then, the two sides run at eachother while pushing the weight, and crash into eachother, all while shouting "'Why do you hoard?' and the other: 'Why do you waste?'" (VII.30). Both sides roll the weights back to opposite corners, and clash over and over until Judgement Day.
I think that the whole suicide issue changes with the times, for example, in war and things like that, it is probably considered more honorable to die by your own hand than by the hand of the enemy... (If you can't die in combat, that is) But if you take your own life simply because you don't like it anymore, it is considered dishonorable because you don't try and give life your best effort. Yeah... Don't think I was much help, but whatever... XP
I am somewhat confused as to how exactly the heretics fit in as part of the allegory of the lion. I am also curious to what exactly classifies a person's sins as herecy. I understood that herecy was the disbelief of god, but Farinata is in this circle, because of his actions against his state for power.
Also, i do not fully understand the symbolic retribution associated with the suicides. I understand why the harpies make them bleed, but am unclear as to why they are trees in the first place.
"and all the pack sprang upon him; with their fangs they opened him and tore him savaggely" Canto 126-128 how does this sybolically relate to the sins of the squanderers? thanks.
“With all my soul I ask it. / Or let us sit together, if it please him / who is my Guide and leads me through this pit.” (Canto XV, lines 34-36)
“you would not yet be banished from the world / in which you were a radiance among men...” (Canto XV, lines 80-81)
This is a situation where the difference between Dante the pilgrim and Dante the poet is clear, but confusing. In circle 7, Dante comes across Brunetto Latini, a Florentine Guelph, whom Dante praises and glorifies. Latini is a renowned political figure and poet in Florence, during Dante’s time. Also, Brunetto is kind of like Dante’s role model, and for this purpose Dante venerates him and spends the most time with him than any character he meets in hell. However, Dante places him in the seventh circle with the sodomites because he accuses Latini of homosexuality. Even though Dante expresses his political opinions to other characters and considers politics to be important, he places more emphasis in his religion, Christianity. I think that’s why Dante placed Brunetto in hell, because Dante views religion to be the most important aspect. On the other hand, Dante the pilgrim pities Latini.
The heretics allegorically fit in with the lion not necessariley because they were physically violent, but because they did violence to God by denying immortality. This is the least violent of the sins of the lion, but violence nonetheless. As for Farinata, he was an Epicurean. The Epicureans followed the philosophy of Epicurus, who taught that happiness is the absence of pain. Dante interprets this as meaning denial of the afterlife, since Epicurus taught temporal happiness.
The suicides are trees because they rejected they Gift of God, also known as life. Since they did not want life and their body, they are not permitted to have a body as punishment. As pointed out in my class period, the speaking through the bleeding of the suicides is also symoblic. It symbolizes how the people in life wanted to make a statement by hurting themselves. Now, in Hell, they may only speak through hurting themselves, similar to how they left life.
The pack represents the people who collected the worldy goods of the squanderers. In life, the squanderers destroyed their lives by wasting all of their money on unnecessary goods, leaving them, and their heirs broke. The only things the squanderers had left was all of the things on which they wasted their money. What is left is then collected by what is the equivalent to a bank and bankruptcy today, and distributed to all the people that the certain person owed due to his or her squandering. The people that gave the sould hell in life by taking their possesions also hunt them down in Hell, symbolically of course.
Thank you Michalangelo (sorry for typo) for explaining, so does Virgil is stuck in Hell right? So if he went to all of Hell before does that mean the people in Hell can move around where ever they want and talk/etc? And does Virgil get out of Hell at the end of the Inferno or does he stay there and does Beatrice then act as the guide for the other 2 books?
Oh and question to Gaia (ive heard the word Gaia before...please clarify where its from I think i know but i forgot or something) so are we only suppost to do 2 per week if we do more do we lose points or something? its just if i only do 2 a week by the next post ill be overwhelmed and ill have to much to write ^.^ and its easier for me to write smaller multiple things rather than one humongous one. and im not trying to be a overachiever its just fun to post whats on my mind whether its about the Inferno or random stuff (which ill try to do less of).
I keep thinking about Dante's religious dogma as it relates to our modern conceptions. Does anyone else think about what future cultures will see in our current texts? Dante's discriminatory ideas about who belongs in hell (muslims for instance) make me think about the ways we've broadened our minds as a species but also about the ways
"...I would say more, but there across the sand a new smoke rises and new people come, and I must run to be with my own band...' He turned then...like one who run for the green cloth at Verona...more like one who wins, than those who lose." Canto XV lines 115-122. Why does Ser Brunetto Latino run away from Dante? Personally, this makes no sense to me as to why he would suddenly run away. Then I read the summary at the beginning of this Cantos, and it told me that he ran away because of 'Divine Compulsion'. But what is 'Divine Compulsion' (I understand the definitions and all that jazz but I don't understand the underling concept of it)?
Through Dante's journey through Hell, nearly all of the circles apply to him. So, if he were to die and go to Hell, where would he (or anybody faced with the same dilemna)end up? I think that it may be possible that he would end up in the circle that punished him for his greatest sin, but if anyone has a real answer, or just a different possible answer, please feel free to respond.
To >>Pookie<< I wan to thank you and answer a question. You asked were the whole flamoing hell idea came up. My best guess is that it came after Dante the Poet's time from the Church. Most likely it was during a time the Church was using scare tactics to keep people christians. After all fire seems a lot worase than ice. And as all of you know the Church often used scare tactics or force.
Finally: Thank you for defining sullen and defending my statment. I had in fact meant it exactly the way you stated. Thanks.
I think the reason that the suicides' punishment is to become trees because in human life they deprived themselves of their bodies, so in the Inferno, their punishment is to be deprived of human form.
but yea in the notes in that canto it explains how people who commited suicide are'nt deserving of human bodies, so they are trees. it said more stuff but my book is too far away for my likeing...
You have a good point. I think that in the book, they are only allowed to speak when they are eaten because in human life they probably felt that they only truly expressed themselves by going against the gift of life. And in hell the only way to have ANY life was by being injured. (symbolic retribution)
Virgil lives in Hell and can't leave, even after he guides Dante through Hell. Also, I don't think people can move around in Hell. They all have committed a particular sin, and have to stay in the circle that punishes for that sin. Virgil was called by Erichtho to get a spirit from Judaica (canto 9 p.93 in the Notes), and I think this is why he moved through Hell once before. Also, when Virgil first meets Dante, he tells him that he can only go to the end of Hell and Divine Love (Beatrice) must take over from there. I think this is supposed to symbolize that Human Reason (Virgil) can only take you so far, and at some point you have to let Divine Love take control.
FA SHO! haha!! you guys be funneh!! what i don't quite understand is the hounds tearing apart the people limb-from-limb in canto 13. i know that the hound is supposed to represent the conscience of the abusers, but the tearing of limbs...is he jus being gruesome now?!
In Canto XIV, i found it quite Ironic how Dante utilizes forms of metals to represent "something else." Little to my knowledge, did i know that that "something else" was taught to me in my western civ class. As i was reviewing my notes for that class i came to realize the significance of the four materials: gold, silver, brass, and iron. The statue itself, made of the materials represented the fall of mankind. As Ovid, one of history's classical poets, explained the four "eras" in a sense of human kind included the GOLDEN age, SILVER age BRONZE/BRASS age, and the IRON age. As I've learned in western civ, the Roman Enpire was strong and led by great leaders such as Octavian, Pompey, Vespasian, and Constantine. This could have been represented by the IRON leg of the statue. Both strong and bold. On the contrary, the right leg was said to have been made of clay. Obviously not nearly as strong as IRON. In this case this could have been symbolic of the Catholic Church, which eventually fell due to herecy and rule of Augustine.
In response to pookie, 3/3/08 7:37 PM, i feel the same way about Dante's gruesomeness. It just scares me. Just these sins that do not seem like a big deal cause an eternity of torture, which, I for one feel is unfair. Life span was about 40 back then, so because of one sin you managed to do in those 40 years, you are punished forever. I mean, isn't that what prison is for. It makes me want to go to church, haha. Seriously though, I don't agree with Dante's view of hell, although it does make sense. I personally like the view of hell that menadict bias had imposed. A guy with horns who rules his domain. OOOOH! Another thing. (Uh oh im running out of room, hold on....)
Why doesn't Lucifer, or Satan have control of his domain. Isn't almost saying that god and satan are opposites. Good souls under god, bad souls under Lucifer. So, why is he frozen in slush? I would be interested in some opinions, i find this interesting, haha.
i don't think that catholic things get their own 'domains' i should prolly know cause im catholic O_< PLEASE correct me if i'm wrong (i totally know what you mean about the church thing >_> <_<)
In response to speaker of the dead,3/3/08 8:23 PM, Satan is not only the ruler of hell but he is sentenced to his own punishment. His crime, treachery against God. For that satin will sit in the bottom of hell stuck in a block of ice, never to be released. So altough he is in control of his domain, hell, he is still powerless to God. God controls who goes where and why and satin himself earned his spot in that iceblock at the center of the earth.
{Original} I was wondering, why is it that those who cause pain to others deserve less than those who cause pain to themselves? I would think that for someone to be so hateful of life and not deserving to go and take their pain out on others should deserve a greater pain than people who can not appreciate life but only take it out on theirselves. If you are so low you must hurt others for your own enjoyment you should be summoned to a lower place than those who can control themselves from hurting others by only punishing themselves.
{ORIGINAL} "..why are they not punished in the rust-red city if God's wrath be upon them ?" (canto XI, line 73) this comment brought an interesting idea to my mind, why is it that God can preform such a sin as wrath? By His own rules, should he not be punished? Could this idea that God also preforms sins give a sense of imperfection to God ( as though dante were questioning his devotion)?
1*bigbadwolf 3/3/08 (5:40) Um, sherlock already answered your question about the trees, but maybe you missed it. The harpies pull off the branches of the trees to make them bleed. Obviously, they don't really do this for any particular reason beside that its torture. It's important because bleeding is the only way for them to be able to speak. However, the suisides are trees mostly because the harpies have to pull off the branch for them to talk. This is symbolic because the suiside people chose to give up their ability to speak against the world by killing themselves, lest they can only speak now whilst in pain. Also, I didn't see the (may i say, brilliant)post that volsung made about the trees. They summed it up beautifully and I tried so, people please stop asking t hat question!
Also, to Carmen 3/3/08 (6:52), Dante never accuses Latini in so many words of homosexuality, because the sodomy in Dante's meaning is not the same meaning as we think of today. Just thought I'd clear that up.
To uchiha itachi, yes, you are supposed to post 2 comments a week. Tomorrow is Wednesday, which is when two posts are due each week, so you need ONE original post and ONE comment post. She said that she would accept the occational "what was the homework... I'm offended!...What the...?" etc. So, if you'd like to fill her requirements and post maybe 3 additional IN A WEEK, be my guest. But, otherwise she said, not necessarily point loss, but she will pull you aside and ask you to stop. So, for the sake of everyone else, keep all your idea blogs on facebook
The reason God can perform wrath simply becase he is God. Ever heard the expression, "Playing God?" This when someone (let's name him Joe) does something wrong (such as killing someone) because Joe believes the person deserved it. Joe thinks he can murder the man he saw mugging an old lady, but truthfully, Joe is just as bad. So, no I don't think Dante is contradicting anything, especially his Catholic faith,or that God is perfect. In fact, Dante saying this may show just how much he worships God because he does believe wrath is wrong, yet God is still all mighty and the Perfect Holy One, is he not?
Oh, and uchiha itachi, you asked where my name came from. Gaia is the Goddess of Earth, and she was also the main character in a book I read a little while ago.
In Circle 7 Dante speaks of The Old Man of Crete. Dante says his head is made of gold,silver arms and chest,brasstorso and iron for the rest EXCEPT the one clay foot.I undersand that they represent the ages of men, but what does the clay foot represent? And why is only the head whole but the rest of the body had a leak, wasting all the suffring of humanity?(14.112-120)
Um, really i didn't get the whole left foot either at first but if you read the notes that John Ciardi put you'll see an expanation. The left foot of clay as you said represents age of man like the whole giant represents but the left foot represents the Holy Roman Empire and the right foot, made of terra cotta represents the Holy Roman Church. So thats whats up with the feet but what i don't get is why the Holy Roman Empire and Church. Anyone get that???
[Original] I get the vague concept of the sins of the userers, that they were bankers or money lenders. I also understand that money lending was seen as evil due to a certain place in the New Testament that condemns money making due to declaration that money must be made from work, and not from money itself. However, I do not clearly understand the symbolic retribution. All I know is that the souls must look at a purse with their coat of arms. May I please get some clarification on the significance of the symbolic retribution?
If I'm not mistaken, Mrs. Tully told us all not to spam randomly. She also told us to speak English, not 1337 or gangsta. I personally don't use smileys in my essays, which are formal. Seeing as these posts are also supposed to be formal, I recommend not speaking in all caps or all lowercase, not using smileys, and making posts that relate to The Inferno or that seem like it comes from a semi-educated person. For the sake of your grades, it would be helpful to those who participate in the stated actions to stop.
Also, reading the previous posts and their questions or answers would be a good idea, since repetition is most likely frowned upon.
It seems odd to me that hell has gaurds. Why would you have someone like Minos, Chiron, Plutus or even Geryon around when it seems to me that all of the circles are like little prisons. I can also see that Dante may have used them as symbols in order to get his point across.
Well if there weren't any guards who would keep the 'prisoners' in line. Some of the circles do need guarding, Chiron and the centaurs need to be near the river ready to shoot down any soul that tries to get out. The guards do help with the symbolism too.
to mikado: Well it is a Devine comedy isnt it? I dont know about you but to me Dante uses such creatures in mockery and irony. Remember what Mrs.Tully said about how all the souls that are in hell got EXACTLY what they wanted? Well The guards are on the same path.
Minos was a mythological King of Crete, he was also born to Zuez and Europa.Befor ethe Trojan war he reigned over Crete, always banishing or welcoming people,like a judge. And as he wanted to Judge, he now sits in Hell deciding upon the souls.
Chiron was the tutor for many heros,like achillies=] He wanted to be a chief guardian to his students and what happened now?
Plutus was born a noble child. He was extremely wealthy,he was the personification of wealth.In later mythology he is blinded by Zeus, so that he would be able to dispense his gifts without prejudice; he is also lame, as he takes his time arriving, and winged, so he leaves faster than he came. When the god's sight is restored, in Aristophanes' comedy, he is then able to determine who is deserving of wealth, creating havoc.Thats why he guards the Hoarders and the Wasters.
I cant give you a persise theory of why Geryon is a guardin though. But I think the fact that he was 3 attached men and that in hell he was 3 parts of something random shows something....that i dont understand.
My original: In Cantos X, Virgil encourages Dante to speak with Farinata who was a a political leader of Dante’s era. Virgil must be well aware that both the war between the Guelphs and politics have changed alot since Farinata met his death. Does anyone suppose what importance Dante the poet found in including these invalid facts in the Inferno?
RE: Achilles: I understand the concept that every soul in the Inferno got what they deserved, but how could the guards have shown that they "wanted" to guard the several circles of Hell?
Why is Virgil the way he is? He is Dante's guide, and a strong figure to Dante, but yet he is weak and vulnerable. To Dante he is the perfect guide, but to me it seems that he is almost as vulnerable to these sins as Dante is. He cannot get past the gates of Dis and he must be carried across the boiling river as well. Is his soul able to feel the torment that the other souls feel?
to iko_iko: I think that perhaps the guards are the ultimate sinners for that particular sin, but because they are all monsters-I don't think any of them are completely human-they aren't treated the same as humans. Also, maybe because they are monsters Dante feels pity for them and decides that because they had to be monsters in real life (which would probably suck a lot) that it was only fair for them to be guarders. Or maybe they had mastered that sin and had therefore had control over the others of that sin. Or maybe even they were able to learn from their sins, and so God put them as overseers of those who couldn't.
hmmm. lots of maybe this or that...Hope this helps.
re: iko_iko Perhaps Dante the poet put in facts that related to the past and not the present time, in which Dante the pilgrim lived, to help to portray the sins that were commited by the people in Hell that Dante spoke to. Thus, helping the reader to understand that different circles of Hell.
to mikado: I think because Virgil is a human soul he is vulnerable and because HUMAN REASON is vulnerable in the sense that human reason can only take a person so far, and cannot overtake all obstacles in life. I don't think he feels others sinners' torment, because he only feels pain for his own sins, and maybe he has the protection of God due to him following the three ladies in heaven's wishes. But I think that it would still hurt him to go in the boiling blood, because his soul is human(and a human would feel pain if it stepped in boiling blood.:D) Once again I think that because Virgil was a human, he can only endure what a human could in RL, with some benefits like nothing can kill him again.
I don't believe Dante ever doubted God's perfection. God's wrath and the sinners' wrath are two different ideas. The sinners' wrath is having and expressing anger, while God's "wrath" is the actual retribution for sin. And in that particular passage, he uses "God's wrath" meaning heavier punishment because all of hell already consists of God's wrath.
Virgil is dead, but it is his spirit that is alive. He is Dante's guide,sent by the three ladies. His punishment is wandering about the citadel of reason... therefore he should not be afraid of anyhting in hell since God has alredy decided his punishment. Maybe his vulnerability is symbolic to the human mind being vulnerable? Maybe i'm just over analyzing this...
Did the book mention which circle of hell the Jews go into? I know that they mentioned something about Judaica in the afternotes, but I wasn't sure if it was related. Since the muslims were in the 9th circle and the Usurers were in one of the lowest (I think 7 or 8) then I would assume the Jews would be in an extremely low circle as well. Hmm...I wonder what specifically about Muslims made Dante feature them prominently in hell when he didn't feature Jewish people. This is interesting because Jews, Christians and Muslims all have shared biblical figures in whom they believe.
Well, I don't really feel/think that Virgil is being puished, he is in the heaven of hell, I mean, the citadel of human reason is not a bad place to be at all. But of course, every human mind is vulnerable, could his vulnerability appear in his writings? Oooh, Mercedes, maybe he is Dante's guide because they share the same weaknesses, therefore, Virgil will notice the things he does as Dante does them on their expedition. Also, Dante could think that Virgil is the perfect guide because he is his idol, and a poet/writer, but also they share these weaknesses. So in a sense, they are writers/poets who write just to write and not for glory, and they both share these weaknesses, so they are practically the same. That could also be why they are put together, btw the mikado, I am the one way over analyzing this, jeez, haha I so nerdy haha! But this is so cool, we are analyzing the depths of hell.
.... So they share the same weaknesses, but Dante will view them as strengths, which Virgil will try to rehabilitate him from being that way. Just in case if anyone was confused.
Okay, well, i forgot, umm... who is Geryon or something like that. Cause i know he was the monster in the 7th circle of hell. But was he good or bad, cause i couldn't really tell? Anyhoo, thanks.
In response to Matilda, (3/4, at 8:35 pm) Geryon is the monster of fraud: he has this pleasent face, but a disgusting body. (See the Notes section following Canto 17.) See how this represents fraud by his deceiving face?
{ORIGINAL} Upon rereading Canto 9 lines 115-117 I realized the walls surrounding the heritics in their tombs are red-hot. I believe this is supposed to act as a warning against heresy similar to the way we now know not to touch a red-hot stove.
After seeing that Virgil easily convinces every beast guarding the passage to another circle, I wonder how exactly does his reson of God convince them. As Satan is God's betrayer, how is it that these creatures or servants of Satan, are suddenly chaanged by Virgil's word.
Also, how exactly does the syymbolic retribution of the violent against art work. "Their eyes burst with their greif." Canto 17 line 43. Art is the form of work and ethics i think, so i am clueless as to how being focused on the coat of arms in the purses. thanks.
Is Virgil with the virtuous pagans? It says in canto 22 that he has experienced the place and in various other parts he says stuff like that he also has the knowledge of the places in Hell, but as the response to him being unable to move around in Hell how could he know this? He is the symbol of human reason, but how does Virgil know this information someone answer this question for me.
From before someone wrote that the Black Guelfs supported the Pope so did the White Guelfs support anyone? Since Dante was a white Guelf did he support anyone?
the white guelphs supported pope boniface (forgot whinch one) and the black guelphs opposed of him. I'm not quite sure WHO they supported. hope that helped
In response to big bad wolf's comment, Virgil isn't convincing the beast of Hell to let him and Dante pass. I think the beast are somewhat intimidated by the fact that 1) he is able to even travel that far in hell, and 2) he pocesses a sort of authority that forces them to obey. Also the violent against art are otherwise known as the users, meaning that they took advantage of art to make themselves famous. The coat of arms on the purses are those of famous Florentine families. I think their symbolic retribution as something to do with them either regretting their fame (wishing to be forgotten) or wishing they were more well-known. I could be totally wrong but I hope that helps a little.
In response to chihiro and pookie, The White Guelphs didn't really support anyone; they were the group who were against papal influence. This can be found here
In Canto XVIII the panderers and seducers are punished by recieving lashes by horned demons. These demons are supposed to symbolize their own individual consciences that are making them feel pain.
I find it interesting that the panderers and seducers receive this punishment when everyone who is in Hell is eligible to recieve this punishment because they all have consciences that have been wrongedin some way.
"Once there, I peered down;and saw long lines of people in a river of excrement that seemed the overflow of the world's latrines."(18.112) First there was a river of boiling blood and now there is a river of bodily waste. How is this river of waste symbolic retribution for the panderers and/or the flatterers?
Speaking of Canto XIX, Wow, I have to say that out of all the circles of Hell, Bolgia three is absolutely the worst punishment that we have read so far. I mean stuck upside down in a hole with their feet on fire. And on top of all that when new sinners come they are dropped into the crevice of the rock never to be seen again. Wow, I would not want to be a simoniac
Found a really cool website for miscellaneous info. Please explore, you may find a very helpful tidbit of information www.englishare.net/literature/POL-DC-Inferno-Notes.htm
I'm kind of confused about the sodomites. So they are in the ground with their feet sticking up because before they died they were given a chance to repent but being stuck in a hole? and its like the opposite of the baptismal fonts because the priest was in the hole closer to the pool? i didn't really understand it.
re: Thing 1 well the sodimites are punished like the guys (i think the people who were payed to kill) so they didnt get to repent like those guys. its like the baptismal thing because next to the giant pool of holy water, there was shallow holes for the priests to stand so they wouldnt have to bend down to pick up the babies every time there was one to dip. Do you kinda get it?
RE: Volsung (4/3/08; 4:01 pm) Not only do the souls have to look at the coat of arms on their purse which is a constant reminder of what landed them there, but the purses also act as weights constantly weihging the sinners down.
To: Thing1 and captain underpants The sodomites are in Circle 7 and they aren't buried in the sand but have to sit/stand on it for all eternity. The simoniacs are the ones who are buried with their burning feet sticking up( the worst sinners had the highest flames). It is like the opposite of a baptismal font because the sinners are in the holes up-side down and the fire is the opposite of water.
In Canto XIX, i found it quite interesting how dante reacted to seeing Simon Magus in the 8th circle. To be more specific he was a memeber of Simoniacs. Apparently, Simon was someone who sold religious offices. I felt that at this part in Dante's Infoerno, we see the true emotion of Dante and his outlook upon simony and Simon himself. I my perspective, we are given the chance to analyze Dante's phsycologic and emotional capacity.
re: turtleheart The river of waste is symbolic of the false flatteries. The excrement is "the true equivalent of their false flatteries on earth." Therefore, they are literally experiencing their own falsities. In other words, they were full of crap (metaphorically), so now they have to stand in it (literally).
(Original) In canto XIV, I don't quite understand the symbolism of the different punishments given to the sinners... do their different positions represent varying levels of pain and punishment?
In Canto XIV each type of sin takes a different position on the burning plains. The blasphemers strech out, the Sodomites go in cicles, and the Usurers huddle.
Each position represents a way that each sinner went against the order of life.
The blashemers, going straight against god, get the most amount of fire rain on them.
The sodomites, choosing to not concieve a child, run in circles, to represent how they didn't contribute to the continuation of life.
The Usurers, the ones who would not except art for what it is, huddle, to continue to keep out the rest of the world/hell.
On pg 162 in canto XVIII (18) lines 127-34 the short story about Thais. Read the final note of the canto about her. It explains Virgils little speech about Thais.
I'm not sure how to understand that note. Does it mean she sent her slave to a man asking if they appreciated the slave? Or is it asking if he appreciated her? What does it mean?
Also, how is the story relevant to the transitioning between the cantos? Why is there this story right before the next canto?
P.S. pg. 166, line 2, as a side comment, is the any possible conception that the context of the quote, "pandering for silver and gold," when talking about the Simoniacs, match the context of the song "Silver and Gold" from the classic clamation movie "Rudolph the Red Nose Reigndeer?"
Thank you so the whites Supported? and blacks supported someone else? hmm thats interesting since the white guelfs got exiled right so wouldnt they not support the pope and the blacks would support the pope instead? that makes more sense to me. If anyone has opinions on this please post them.
In Canto XX, it talks about the Fortune Tellers in Hell. How come Fortune Tellers go to Hell, but in mythology, people are allowed to go to oracles and such to find out their future?
to mercutio: I agree with kaitlyn. But i also think the reason they are in hell is because the future is only for God to know and is the will of God. If someone goes around spreading the future, they are dealing in business that is not for them to know.
In agreeance to Kaitlyn and etc The people in mythology couldve been telling the future, but not in Gods power, so they were in Hell because of doing fortune telling that isnt from God, so they got punished
agreed, but another thought. Maybe it could have been Dante's personal view or the view of the Renaissance time period that Fortune Tellers were sinners for I guess lieing and halucinating...:D
Geryon, in Greek mythology, was a fearsome giant of three heads, three bodies, and six legs. He owned a dog named Orthrus that confronted Heracles. Orthrus was killed, provoking Geryon to pursue Heracles in hopes of avenging his dog. He had chased Heracles to the river Anthemus. Unfortunately [for Geryon], Heracles had shot an arrow dipped in the blood of a Hydra [a mythological multiple-headed serpent], and was instantly killed when the arrow pierces through his head. This is one account of the many that told of Geryon's death. Even though Geryon was portrayed as a warrior, in Note 1 on Page 154, it states that Geryon's form in Hell [Innocent face with a reptilian body - "a monster with the general shape of a dragon but with the tail of a scorpion, hairy arms, a gaudily-marked reptilian body, and the face of a just and honest man..." (Canto XVII, Note 1, Page 154).] was completely of Dante's own invention.
In Canto XXI i found it significant that this is one of the few times we have seen Dante threatened by danger. In this case Malabranche was the demon who attempted to grab him with his claws. Also, we go back to a reference of past present and future, as the head of the Malabranche informs Dante and Virgil to be cautious of a fallen bridge along the way. “It was yesterday, five hours later than now, / That the twelve hundred and sixty-sixth year fell / Since the road here was ruined” (XXI.110–112). (1,266 years, one day, and five hours before the present time)
“Forever round this path / Ulysses and Diomede move in such dress, / united in pain as once they were in wrath” (Canto XXVI, lines 55-57)
It is clear that Dante is influenced by Virgil and reveres Rome. Virgil wrote the Aeneid, and presents a Roman view; Dante admires Virgil, and therefore glorifies Rome. Ulysses was an enemy of Aeneas and automatically is an enemy of Rome. We can see Dante’s attack on Antiquity. He obviously does not believe in the Greek values, so he places a great emphasis on Christian values. According to Dante, Ulysses and Diomede were reckless and behaved fraudulently by Christian standards. I think this is why Dante placed them so deep in Hell.
My first response to your question was that Christianity might have rejected mythological ideas. But if that were so, it's interesting that Dante chooses to include mythological creatures as monsters and guards in his hell. Can anyone clarify this?
It’s kind of surprising how Navarrese’s soul tricks the two demons in Canto XXII. The ministers of Hell seem too powerful to be fooled by the sinners that they torture so effortlessly. However, the demons are captives in hell as well, because in Canto XXIII we find out that they cannot leave the Fifth Pouch. Just as every sinner is assigned a specific place, so are the demons. They are fallen angels that probably get tortured for their disobedience to God just as the sinners do. The creatures also don’t learn in hell so they continue to make the same mistakes in the underworld.
I think the reason those that go to fortune tellers aren't in hell is because they didn't actually look into the future, but the tellers did so they are in hell. I know its a fine line but it is the only plausible explanation I can think of.
In Canto XXV, lines 25 to 33 it seems like this character, Cacus, could potentially be in two circles. The one with the murderers and in C8 B7 with the theives. But I suppose this circle is more appropriate because of what he killed.
Cantos XXI and XXII Does anyone have an idea on why Malacoda, the leaders of the demons, told Virgil and Dante that the brigde to the sixth bolgia was broken? I feel he had a motive in doing so because Malacoda had some of his demons escort Virgil and Dante and after they slipped away the demons seemed to be in a frantic search to find them. Help me please.
In canto XXV, "When he had finished, the thief-to his disgrace-raised his hands with both fists making figs, and cried: "Here, God! I throw them in your face!" (1-3)
Vanni is the one that insults god, but why does he do this? I know we discussed in class that beings in hell are deprived of human reason, but the Grafters have enough reason to diminish their own pain inside hell by coming partially out of their liquid prison and trying to avoid the demons. This displays basic human survival instincts, along with some more complex functions of threat recognition and the ability to manipulate the demons. So, with this in mind, why would Vinni threaten God, and bring more pain upon himself than before?
To respond to Bilbo baggins, Malecoda tricked the poets, he was planning to do them harm. Dante later finds out that Malecoda lied about the bridge, leading to the scene where Virgil guides Dante up the wall of the Bolgia.
" In that sweet season when the face of him who lights the world rides north, and at the hour when the fly yeilds to the gnat"( Canto XXVI, line 28-30)Is Dante merely talking about spring(the season) or does he have deeper meaning in these lines?
In Canto XXVI, The Evil Conselors. it says there sin was, "to abuse the gifts of the Almighty, to steal his virtues for lower purposes." I am unclear on the exact "gifts of God" that they are refering to, since there are so many they could be.
I do believe that Vanni does this with the knowledge that he will be punished. However, I think he does it anyway, because he is so enraged, he gets to the point where he can't hold back. I mean he has hit the lowest point. He's in hell, being harshly pained by viscious reptiles. I'm sure after a while of that punishment, you'd start to go crazy in Hell and just think What the heck? Why does it matter?
In my opinion, I felt that Vanni Fucci was just one angry guy. I don't understand what you said about the Grafters but remember that Vanni was a thief, being punished by having their hands bound behind their backs and being attacked and burst into flames by reptiles. Your comment does bring one question to mind though. The thieves hands, as explained by Ciardi, were bound behind their back yet Vanni "raised his hands with both fists making figs" (Canto XXV, Line 2). How did Vanni raise his fists when they were behind his back?
You have made a very interesting point. My best bet would be that Vanni does not have human reason, as you said. However, in life the Grafters were clever with their intellect. In Hell, they are punished, but still retain their abilities, but not using it reasonably. Vanni was a thief, which doesn't necessarily mean he was clever with words or wit. He, like Francesca da Rimini still isn't fully aware of everything going on. I assume that as Francesca blamed everything on love, Vanni blames something else, and still thinks he is hot stuff in the same way that Francesca thought she was completely innocent. As well as the individual thoughts, the Grafters were supposed to stay in their liquid prison but they occasionally came out, resulting in capture. The Grafters lacked the reason to stay in the pitch, despite the fact that they have seen others be caught and torn apart. The same theory most likely applies to Vanni as well, since he decides to make a gesture to God that is the equivalent of "screw you." As for the basic instinct of survival, I believe that the people in Hell are dead. I also believe that bursting into flames is an unnatural, unavoidable threat. Vanni is still angry at God, so he wouldn't mind making God angrier.
In responce to Takashi (10/3/08 6:39 PM)
Apparently he broke free, or his hands were not yet bound since he had just been reformed.
Malacoda lies about the bridge over the sixth bolgia because [according to the Friar] "Once at Bologna I heard the wise discussing the Devil's sings; among them I heard that he is a liar and the father of lies" (Canto XXIII, Lines 139-141). I interpreted this as the Devils, though being punishers of the sinners, are also sinners themselves, as the Friar points out. It also felt like Malacoda wanted to lie to Virgil and Dante to throw them off course because the demons helped them and wanted to get Virgil and Dante back for that. I am confused by the fact that Virgil actually believed Malacoda. In Canto XXI, Lines 65 and 66, Virgil says "I know these matters: / I have been through this once and come back safely" Doesnt this mean that Virgil has already passed through this point and therefore would've known if there was or wasn't a bridge over the sixth bolgia?
I'm a little unclear about the fourfold analysis for panderers and seducers. I am assuming seducers have the same meaning as today but a panderer, do they also just convince people to sin. Is the difference that seducers use or offer sex? Other than that they seem like the same thing to me. In general with the fourfold analysis I think it is difficult to distinguish some of the categories. For moral/pshycological, I basically said that Dante thought it was immoral, but that seems way to vague. Then for spiritual, I said that adultry is a sin. Well both those answers seem way to obvious. Can anyone help me with this??? Thanks.
Achilles- Perhaps when they say chaos, they meant (as the definition on dictionary.com says)a state of utter confusion or disorder. They were not, however, hyper all the time or insane.
As i've continued to review past cantos, i come to realize just how visual Canto XXIV. When Virgil and Dante make there way into the 7th Bolgia, serpent like demons chase after the naked sinners who committed the crime of theft. When i read of the serpent like creatures wrapping around the hands of the sinners, i instantly though of .. handcuffs believe it or not. As seen in todays CSI or police type movies. :) This i found funny, but ideal like to todays society, and the punishment we see givein to robbers. But unlike Dante's visualization of hell, its quite grusome to know that the sinners caught oh fire after being coiled around by the snakes. (most definitely not seen in OUR society)
In response to legolas 10/3/08 6:30 PM, Thank you for the help. I do see that insanity had to have taken place at some point. Endless punishment must make you at least a little mad...
There is no Bolgia of chaos per se, but there is a Bolgia of Discord. In canto XXVIII, lines 1-3, "Who could describe, even in words set free/ of metric and rhyme and a thousand times retold,/ the blood and wounds that now were shown to me!" Dante describes the scene as indescribable. These sinners sowed discord, or caused confusion and chaos in society. There are three different levels of this, Religious, political, and kinsmen. These sinners were not hyper, they fall underneath the sins of the leopard, so they are evil, conspiring people as opposed to those sinners that fall underneath the lion. Those were the hyper and violent ones. The souls in Bolgia nine abused their intellect by causing conflict and chaos. Essentially, they sowed chaos in the fabric of society.
(Original)""That one nailed across the road counselled the Pharisees that it was fitting one man be tortured for the public good. Naked he lies fixed there, as you see, in the path of all who pass; there he must feel the weight of all eternity..."" (XXIII.112-117).
I'm slightly confused about who this person crucified in the circle of the hypocrites is. Did they mention a name and I just missed it? I think it's interesting that among people cursed to drag lead cloaks around, there would be a random crucified naked sinner. Why does he get a different punishment from the rest?
In respons to Catwoman (10/3/08 7:56 PM): You're right!! The demons are also symbolic in that they spear (or grapple?) pretty much anything that they can, just as the grafters got their fingers into whatever they could. "...and stay below, unless you want a taste of a grappling hook..." (XXI.53-54). So not only the pitch which the grafters are immersed in is symbolic, but the demons that guard the place too.
To Cassius: The crucified man in the middle of the hypocrites is Caiaphas. He was the High Priest of the Jews who advised them to crucify Jesus for the self-interest of the public. His symbolic retribution is that he carries the weight of the world's hypocrisy just as Jesus carried the weight of everyone's sins at his crucifixion.
446 comments:
1 – 200 of 446 Newer› Newest»Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.
Welcome to the 2008 Inferno Weblog. Use this as a place to discuss questions and comments about the book. Be sure to note Canto and line number for specific questions, in order for your classmates to better answer.
After hitting the comments button, go down and click on Name/URL. Type in your name that you have given Mrs. Tully, no URL is needed. This will keep the boards anonymous, but make sure you get a grade for posting.
First comment!
Also I keep trying to figure out what Plutus does and whre he came from. i know now he lives with the sullen, but is he some sort of guard like minos or the other guard who I can't remember right now... with the tail... so what is he?
Second Comment!
Umm who was Dido was he like related to Francesca? Oh and who was Minos?
I forgot both and I think i got them mixed up on the quiz -.-
Someone tell me
^.^
Were we suppost to read and Cantos today?
Speaking of the sullen. I think the fact that the sullen AND wrathful were together means that the 5th level of hell was reserved for the constantly angry. The only difference is the wrathful took action while the sullen fumed silently to themselves.
to uchiha itachi <- ahah great name
we are supposed to read cantos 8-10 for thursday
to the people who pay attention in their reading:
Whos Minos??
And who guard the lustfull??
TNX
=D
achilleezz
To Achilles
Minos is the Demon that wraps his tail around you, the more times he wraps his tail around you, the lower in hell you go.
I'm not really sure who guard the lustful though.....I'm actually not sure there is a guard. The only guards I know of are
Cerebus in Circle 3, and Plutus in Circle 5 :O
yah plutus and cerberus and i think Medusa is guard of the gate maybe im not sure... oh and i agree with you bias about the anger thing oh and ty achilles so was that it? 8-10 i did that yesterday so yah darn so i got minos wrong on the test... so whos Dido anyone know?
would medusa/her sisters count as a guard? (from the story of that one guy who cut Medusas head)
"May you weep and wail to all eternity, for I know you, hell-dog, filthy as you are" (VIII37-38). ORIGINAL POST.
I find it fairly interesting how Dante, who at first was so full of sadness and pity when he came across the damned souls, suddenly becomes derailed and verbally abuses them. Then I also found how Virgil reacted to be noteworthy. He praises Dante lavishly and laughs with joy. Does anyone know the reason for Dante's change in heart? It was so sudden that I'm utterly confused by it. And then Virgil's response, why was he so utterly happy? Was it just because the souls need punishment for their sins and deserve what they're getting? Ah, I'm confused.
To Cassius:
I think that Dante's change of heart was more gradual than you think. If you remember he swooned at the Second Circle (the Carnal), only cried at the Third Circle (Gluttons), felt relatively neutral at the Fourth (Hoarders and Wasters), and even worsens the pain of Filippo Argenti in the Fifth Circle (Wrathful and Sullen).
Concerning Virgil's happiness at Dante abusing Filippo, you have to remember that these souls chose their fate; they treated others how they're being treated in Hell. It goes with that Symbolic Retribution thing.
To Uchiha Itachi (6:16 PM):
I think that the Furies would usually only count as inhabitants of Dis, which houses Fiends and Furies (see p. 48), but seeing as they're trying to scare away/kill Dante, unlike the fallen angels, I guess you could categorize them as guards.
"Ah, what scorn breathed from that angel-presence. He reached the gate of dis and with a wand he waved it open, for there was no resistance" (On page 90). My question is whether the wand is supposed to be portrayed like a wand from Harry Potter or if it's symbolizing anything other thing in particular. Also, if the wand is in fact supposed to be "HP-like", wouldn't this contradict his catholic beliefs because in the bible, it clearly states that sorcery is prohibited?
To Tink
"Ah, what scorn breathed from that angel-presence. He reached the gate of dis and with a wand he waved it open, for there was no resistance"
I think that the wand would be symbolic, since you made the point that if it was a sorcery wand, that would completely contradict church beliefs, however, this IS Hell, so everything is not what the church would believe to be in heaven,But if it is symbolic, the question is, what does it symbolize?
To Tink:
It's not necessarily symbolic, it probably just a wand, but not in the "HP" sense of the word. Another definition of a wand is "a rod or staff carried as an emblem of one's office or authority." So it could just be something given to residents of hell with authority so that they can enter and leave the city of Dis at their leisure.
To Tink:
I think that the wand just simply reveals the power of God (through the messenger) over Hell's inhabitant's. This shows the power of Good/Evil and you will notice how the rejected angels "breathe scorn" at the messenger, yet are powerless against him and can only sulk and pout. :)
Also, I don't think it has anything to do with witchcraft/HP. I think Dante's main focus was on the power of God over hell and the sinfulness and horrors of hell.
To Achilles:
Minos is the one who determines what circle each dead soul goes to. He is often called the "Judge of the Dead" << I heard that somewhere..
He judges which circle a soul goes to by his tail. However many times he wraps it around is the circle that soul shall go to.
"There Minos sits, grinning,grotesque, and hale./ He examines each lost soul as it arrives /and delivers his verdict with his coiling tail." (Canto V, Lines 4-6).
As to who he wraps his tail around, I'm not sure. Is he wrapping his tail around himself or the soul of the person he's judging? Any answer to this would be greatly appreciated.
"And so at last we came /to foot of a Great Tower that has no name." (Canto VII, Page 76, Lines 130-131). Here Dante refers to a Great Tower that has no name but it's written as Great Tower being capitalized, as if it was proper. Also, back on page 48, with the map, the tower is shown as being named simply "The Great Tower". I'm not sure if Dante just refers to it as the Great Tower just with capitalization or what? It seems contradictory in my opinion. Also, does anyone know why on the top of page 76 it says "Canto VIII" even though it's the end of Canto VII? Typo maybe?
About the heavenly messenger, why does he possess so much power? It looks like to me that if you make it too heaven you are blessed with lots of power because you see in canto 9 page 90-91 the messenger all high and mighty."Ah, what scorn breathed from the Angle-presence! He reached the gates of Dis and with a wand he waved it open, for there was no resistance."
From this it looks like he is very powerful, but even though why doesnt any of the creatures or anybody at all from hell mess with the messenger?
to cassius: about dante's reaction to seeing the damned soul, the soul he is speaking to is filippo argenti,who belgoned to the adimari family, who were bitter political rivals of dante, and so his comment to him in hell was probably an insult to the adimari family. also, christ is a symbol of perfection to dante the poet, and he might believe that a complete rejection of all that is evil will purify the soul, so dantes scornful words/treatment of the soul, which symbolizes a sin, is a rejection of something evil, which will bring his soul closer to that image of christ.
(there is a better explanation in the the notes after canto VIII)
I find it interesting yet cruel that anything opposing or not relating to god refers to or is put in hell. For example, in canato XIII in the notes, it explains about muslim mosques.... a mosque would seem the perversion of a church, the impious counterpart of the House of God, just as aSatan is God';s impious counterpart. His city is therefore architecturally appropriate. I find it annoying that Dante slams other religions, although it was appropriate at the time of his life. Probably because of the after shock of the crusades. I would be interested in any other comments people have on my philosophy. ( oh and uchiha itachi, stop asking for the homework, thats why ms. tully gave a planner check.)
oops, i fogot quotations for the notes citation. sorry
To all who need it:
Minos guards the lustfull
I found a great website by the way!
http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle2.html
its really helpfull..but i font understand why Francesa would be placed in Circe 2??
Shoudnt she be placed in circle 8 for pimping and seducing???
achilleezz
To Achilles
Francesca, although it would seem her sins are more appropriately represented in the lower circles of Hell, is placed in circle 2, the carnal. This is a representation of the choice dante the poet has in his work. He chose to put Francesca in the circle of lesser punishment even though her greater sin was maybe more adapt to a lower circle's punishment. However, in general, i believe the sinners are punished for their greatest sin. I question, although i know dante the poet and dante the pilgrim are seperate, is this favoritism for francesca reveal a weakness implying Dante was more likely to be acused of this sin (lust)himself?
No, I don't believe so. Dante explains that her crimes were those of passion. The quote "The other is dido; faithless to the ashes of sichaeus, she killed herself for love." (Canto 5 p.59 line 61-62) explains that Dido's suicide was out of love. What defines the carnal is their loss of control to love, not necessarily what the actions as a result were.
To Junie B. Jones
Upon further reading, Later cantos reveal that Dante does eventually go back to pitying the souls of the damned in lower circles, and virgil has to scold him from doing so. Dante's (the pilgrim) emotion towards the souls is not the linear pattern you propose.
what exactly is plutus? The notes call him the king of the under world (like pluto) and Lucipher, but virgil calls him a "wolf of hell" (canto 7 line 7)
crap...that anonymous one was mine...i click the wrong one xD
to Frederic Chopin...umm it's a little late, but i think minos wraps his tail around himself, not around the person being judged
:\
HAHA sorry for the inconstantcy anonymous/pooky are pookie
...but i got conformation on the minos and his tale, he DOES in fact wrap his tail around himself its says at this website:
http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle2.html#minos
there's even a spiffy little pic
;D
Pookie is right.
Agh sorry for the typo before gosh yah i accidentally put and instead of any -.- sorry for any confusion.
Thank you for answering my question junie b jones about the furies, umm another question, what does Plutus look like continuing from Pookies question (appearance-wise), oh and Speaker for the dead you asked me to "stop asking for the homework"I only asked once since i lost the paper and couldn't find it that day (luckily i found it after some time, aka after i posted this).
New topic!
Does anyone accually know the historical background of the white/black guelfs, Ghibilenes (sorry if i spelled wrong Im using a horrible keyboard at some place in the middle of nowhere...) and why did Dante decided to be a white Guelf/when did he become a white Guelf?
Post 1:13 AM (I KNOW IM CRAZY, >.<)
3-01-08 happy March 1st!
I looked at some pictures of Plutus online and he looked human kind of, but I'm not sure if its accurate can someone clarify/support/disprove that Plutus looks like a human?
In Response to Uchiha Itachi
In the 12th century the Guelfs and Ghibellines were political parties in Germany and Italy who disagreed on one main issue. Merchant class citizens who wanted a constitutional government represented the Guelfs. The Guelfs had the support of the Pope. The Ghibellines however were aristocratic and therefore didn't support the church (pope) rather they supported the emperor. The Ghibellines banished the Guelfs in 1249 when Fredrick II came to their aid. Ten years later the Guelfs returned and took over. Then in 1300 the Guelfs split in two. The Blacks who supported Pope Boniface VIII and the Whites who opposed him. Dante became interested in politics in 1295 and disliked Boniface VIII. This is why Dante became a white Guelf.
"May you weep and wail to all eternity, for I know you, hell-dog, filthy as you are" (VIII.37-38). In this quote, Dante verbally abuses one in the swamp of the 5th circle. However, knowing that Dante is indeed Catholic, why would he judge one when it clearly states in the bible, "Judge not lest he be judged." If he is judging people in this manner, wouldn't he be concerned with his own actions being judged with the same severity? Any opinions?
Tink, you raise an interesting question. There do seem to be conflicting points in Dante's Inferno and the Bible. But we must also remember that the Inferno was influenced by his era, politically and culturally. These impact his writings more than the literal scriptures in the bible itself.
In response directly to Tink's example, the soul has technically already been judged by god, and therefore can be judged. It is possible to look at Dante's scorn as agreeing with God's divine punishment for that soul. When Virgil says "Blessed be she who bore you,..."(VIII,43), Virgil is praising Dante's position of cruelty towards the damned. On page 85, it explains that the same words were said by Luke to Christ, so Dante's use of it here emphasizes that the cruelty to the damned is in fact a way of purging ones own soul. In our modern culture we would look down upon such behavior.
In my opinion tink when it says that in the bible i think it means the undamned since the ones in hell are there because they chose that and wouldnt be equal to those who are still alive and that those who are damned wouldnt really count as people nut more as souls stuck in Hell eternally and that got what they got and since they have no logic/human reason/etc they would be more like machines that people
IF ANYONE WANTS TO DISPROVE THIS PLEASE BE MY GUEST ^.^ oh and this isnt to disprove anyone, sorry if i ended up attacking anyones opinion on this.
thanks Thetisthegodess (typo?)
for clarifying the black Guelf/white guelf thing but question what/who did the white Guelfs support?
ORIGINAL POST
"I am led by him who waits there, and whom perhaps your Guido held in scorn." (X.62-63)
I understand that Cavalcanti mistook this and thought Dante meant Guido had died already. Since this is not what Dante meant, what did he mean by this last phrase? Is it possible, or likely, that he thought Guido to be an opposition to Human Reason? Was this an insult towards Guido? This is confusing to me because Guido was a poet and friend of Dante
To Luna Lovegood:
What Dante is literally saying is that he is being led by Virgil who guido had disrepected, disliked, etc. he is saying that by guido disrespecting human reason, he cannot get to heaven/paradiso. i think dante was more stating the fact that guido did this, not insulting him but gut guido did marry the daughter of a ghibilline leader so you never know.
to uchiha itachi
Dido was the Queen of Carthage and she fell in love with Aeneas, even though she was married. When Aeneas left her to found Rome she stabbed herself and died.
Minos, a monster, is known as the judge of Hell. He wraps his tail around himself to determine a soul's place in hell. (ex: if he wraps his tail around him four times, the soul belongs in the fourth circle: with the hoarders and the wasters).
Both are found in Canto 2
Tink, I think that possible spending more time in hell changes a person. Or maybe Dante the Pilgim is differnt. Also I think its what God planned for those people in Hell and that nobody in there can receive one bit of grace so it wouldn't really be bad for Dante to critcize indiviuduals in hell.
I do not really understand what Brunetto Latino means when he says, "the sweet fig is not meant to bear its fruit beside the bitter sorb-tree." In the notes, it said that a sorb-tree is a species of tart apple, but what does this statement toward Dante mean?
Something I don't understand is why Lucifer is being punished in the ninth circle. "The Emperor of the Universe of Pain jutted his upper chest above the ice." In every other version I've heard of Hell, the Devil is the head of Hell and makes the punishments for everyone else. Is Dante's version just another way of looking at Hell, or am I misunderstanding what's really going on in the last circle with Lucifer?
In Dante's hell, God and divine retribution decide a souls fate, not Lucifer himself.
In Canto XIII, Dante speaks to one of the trees, Pier Dele Vigne. He says in lines 76-79 "If either of you return to the world, speak for me, to vindicate in the memory of men one who lies prostrate from the blows of Envy."
In this, He is speaking of Envy as a woman he was jealous of, right?
"the sweet fig is not meant to bear its fruit beside the bitter sorb-tree." Canto XV Lines 5
Mercutio, Brunetto explains this as a cause for the fact that, "good works are your enemy." He means that opposites are not meant to go together and do not work well. In relation to Dante, Brunetto says earlier how he thought that heaven was well disposed towards Dante. Perhaps this is the opposition to the fact that they are meeting together in hell.
"the sweet fig is not meant to bear its fruit beside the bitter sorb-tree." Canto XV Lines 5
Mercutio, Brunetto explains this as a cause for the fact that, "good works are your enemy." He means that opposites are not meant to go together and do not work well. In relation to Dante, Brunetto says earlier how he thought that heaven was well disposed towards Dante. Perhaps this is the opposition to the fact that they are meeting together in hell.
"the sweet fig is not meant to bear its fruit beside the bitter sorb-tree." Canto XV Lines 5
Mercutio, Brunetto explains this as a cause for the fact that, "good works are your enemy." He means that opposites are not meant to go together and do not work well. In relation to Dante, Brunetto says earlier how he thought that heaven was well disposed towards Dante. Perhaps this is the opposition to the fact that they are meeting together in hell.
okay, this is kinda late, but to uchiha itachi. Well, Dido, wasn't related to Francesca. She was Aneas' lover. When Aneas had to leave her to found the future site of Rome, she became so upset that she killed herself. She is one of the lustfull people in hell (i can't remember the name. doesn't it start with a C or something?) Anyhoo, and Minos was the guy who told people what circle of hell they had to go to.
Mkay. ttfn =]
To Zeus (2/3/08 12:10 PM):
You have a good question, and I'm not really sure I have an answer, but I think that the reason why Lucifer is at the very deepest circle of Hell is because he tried to overthrow God in a struggle for power. I don’t really think that Lucifer is the Devil, from what I understand (and I don’t remember where I heard this), Lucifer was an angel but grew jealous of the Lord, resulting in his banishment from Heaven. I think only then was Lucifer named Satan.
to >>ZEUS<<
Dante the Poets hell was his vision of what hell shoul be like. And if I am not mistaken his version came before the whole "flaming underworld ruled by a red dude with horns" we now associate hell with.
to menedict bias <---
so, did all of the people in Dante's era associate freezing and cold to hell as opposed to firey demons with curely horns? If so, where might have the firey-ness come in?
In response to what Menidict Bias (2/28/08 3:25pm) said, I think that the sullen aren't quite the same as the wrathful. I thought the sullen were always sad and depressed. Where as the wrathful were agressive and angry. At first I didn't understand why they were in the same circle (Canto VII)but I believe the similarity is in their symbolic retribution. They both are sentenced to the same disgusting slime. It is more obvious that the slime can symbolize the evil of the wrathful. But, the sullen are stuck underneath it because they could not accept Divine Illumination. So my point is, I think the similarity between the two is their inhabitility to appreciate God. They both can't see past their anger or their sadness to embrace God.
sherlock <--
you prove an excellent point but according to sictionary.com sullen is: "showing irritation or ill humor by a gloomy silence or reserve" which is'nt quite sad or depressed, but more..i'm not quite sure how to put it...but i guess they are angry in the inside.
:\
((Wow, lots of Naruto names, ne? Maybe I should have picked someone from another anime... XD))
"...Their wings are wide, their feet clawed, their huge bellies covered with feathers, their necks and faces human. They croak eternally in the unnatural trees." (Canto XIII lines 13-15)
So... This would be describing Harpies, which were "over-seers of the damned". According to Inferno the harpies would feed on the souls of the Suicides, who would be encased in thorny trees. Apparently the harpies were all bird exept for their head in Inferno. Since the Suicides destroyed their own bodies, they are not allowed a human form, so the harpies feed on them... This grotesquely makes sense to me.
In response to why lucifer is in the ninth circle:
In Dantes time as cassius said, lucifer was seen as god's left hand man in heaven (that is why the left hand was seen as evil for so many years) and as he grew jealous of gods power, he and other angels decided to overthrow god. God Created the inferno to imprison those angels, and humans who had the evil qualities like the angels. lucifer was the leader and most wicked of the group and was sent to suffer the most in the inferno. The story like so many others in history took on characteristics of other religions, stories, ideas, etc from many sources and it molded into the story of the red guy with horns and a trident that toutures you in hell. Lucifier is not that guy but another sinner getting punishment.
Pookie:
The "firey-ness" came in to the understanding of Hell through Jesus. In the New Testament, Jesus says:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" (Mark 9:43)
Whether Jesus means a physical fire, like those on earth, or if the fire was an analogy for the type of suffering is not clear. The usual interpretation, such as in The Inferno, tend to explain the fires to be real. However, later in the New Testament, there is mention of a "...lake of fire..." (Revelation 20:14), which further supports the idea of a physical fire.
volsung
thanks for clearing that up!
...now that i think about it, aren't the rivers fiery too?
either way thanks!
Carmen 8:12 PM, March 2, 2008 Response to Uchiha Itachi, 3/1/08 12:13 AM
Dante’s Plutus is deformed for his own purposes. I think you are right about Plutus having some resemblance to humans. I also think he looks part animal. The guards of the circles seem to be monstrous. Plutus, who guards the fourth circle, is shown the same way. Even though he is the God of Wealth in mythology, he is illustrated to us like this to show the severity of the punishments in the fourth circle for the prodigal and the greedy. I think Dante uses this technique for all the guards of hell, like Minos (judge of souls, who resides in the 2nd second circle).
Woot Kisame hooray my partner in Crime (only people who know what Naruto is will know what im talking about).
Thank you everyone who has Answered my Questions, (oh and I love the names of some of you people and hate some names and think some are funny) so Dido had nothing to do with Francesca right (darn i got that wrong on the test -.-)
Thanks Matilda, and Bilbo (love both your names ^.^) but yah it was a little late, and Minos was covered, but thank you for the help clarifying about Dido!
Oh and I agree with your Idea Kakashi about the Hell changing people with the Tink/etc (how many Naruto people are there? Itachi[me], Kisame, Kakashi/Takashi (i think))
Thank you Carmen for Clarifying the info on Plutus (>'.')>
Does anyone know who the Deleted Comment was lol!
SORRY THIS IS SO LONG ITS JUST THAT I WANT TO COMMENT EVERYDAY AT LEAST ONCE AND I ENDED UP GOING SOMEWHERE SO I MISSED A LOT AND BY THE TIME I GOT BACK THERE WERE LIKE 30 POSTS COMMENTING ON ME SO SORRY FOR THE WASTE OF SPACE!
How many different Screen Names have posted so far?
Question about the Essay on Francesca/the 4 thing when is it due?
, and a question on the book does anyone know is Virgil dead and guiding Dante, or is he Alive, is Virgil a Citizen of Hell or Heaven or is he like Dante a wanderer who just went through some part of hell but ran away to the dark wood and helped Dante, what is Virgil i know hes Human reason metaphorically but what is he?
Sorry this is so late! But 6th comment Achilles question on the Lustful right and who guards, the answer to the lustful's guard, appearantly Minos is first mentioned here, but im not sure about if he Guards the Lustful
In Cantos 12 circle 7 when it says the part about the Minotaur what does Virgil/Dante/the Minotaur do during that time that lets them run does it bite itself and since the Minotaur was acting unintelligently were they able to get past? i got kinda confused when i read it...
(Ive posted aprox 2-4 comments a day lol Woot XD, from names of some people i can guess who some are, but i wont say who i think/guess, but if you think you know who I am and think my comments rock please find me at school and tell me the password which is Chidori)
IGNORE THE SENTENCE IN PARENTHESIS UNLESS YOU ENJOY READING MY COMMENTS LOL
ugh i write too much random stuff after my important questions and get off topic to many times ill limit my randomness after this comment...
"Reader judge for yourself, how each black word/ fell on my ears to sink my heart:/ i lost hope of returning to the world" (Cant VIII, lines 91-93). umm is Dante's addressing the audience (us) directly or am i missing something??
"where is my son? why is he not with you?" (Canto X, line 60)
Why is Cavalcante expecting Guido to be with Dante?...again, am i missing something?
btw uchiha, try keeping it with the inferno ;D
"And shortly after, I saw the loathsome spirit/ so mangled by a swarm of muddy wraiths/ that to this day I praise and thank God for it." (Canto 8, lines 55-58) This passage confused me because I don't really understand how Dante could be so rude to this particular spirit. In every other circle he seems to show some interest in what the spirits have to say, but when Filippo tries to talk to him, Dante acts very rudely (and Virgil approves of it!) It does mention in the Notes that they were enemies, but I just don't understand why Dante and Virgil would act this way.
"My face had paled to a mask of cowardice" (IX,1) I am still not to sure who Plutus circle 5 or Cerebus circle 3 are, and what the meaning of them being included in Dantes inferno?
And also i am not to sure why Dante got in a quarrel with Farinata, i guess i could not really understand Ms. Tully in class Friday!?! Not that she was confusing i just didnt understand her theorybehind all of this. >_< :p
“It falls into the wood, wherever fortune flings it, it strikes root, and there it sprouts.”(VIII 7-9) At first it seems strange that the Suicides’ punishment is to be turned into trees. It does not seem to fit the usual patterns of punishments. But it definitely fits the crime. They removed their bodies from earth, so their souls for the rest of eternity will be unable to take the human form. In committing suicide, these souls denied their God-given immortality and confirmed that they did not want their bodies. Their punishment fulfills their wish only now they can’t undo their mistakes.
You know what, guys? I was just reading all of these quite interesting comments and was suddenly laughing. Look at the grammar and punctuation and the use of words normally reserved for the dictionary. I think its hilarious. Frankly, if you were a complete outsider reading this, you would assume it was written by a bunch of bored college kids. Gosh, i love uhs.
P.S. I really like that Mrs. tully gives us a place to talk, anonymously, about the way we feel about all the shananagins going down in the Inferno.
Comment Post, on Pookie 2/3/08 (9:35)
Um, I'm not sure to whom Dante is addressing (though I'm not sure that's really important) but I do know the second question. When Cavalcante ask Dante why he is in hell, Dante replies it is his great journey back onto the right path. However, Cavalcante becomes a little upset and asks Dante why his journey of genius occurs without Cavalcante's son Guido. He asks if Dante presumes he is better then Guido. Dante answers simply that he is on the journey with aid from powers Guido has not seeked (meaning penance) but Cavalcante accidently thinks that Dante is saying Guido is dead and swoons back into the flames. So the short answer to your question, Pookie, is that Cavalcante was not exactly expecting Guido to be with Dante, he simply challanged Dante at first, sort of showing him that he's not better then his son. However, when Dante gives his reply, Cavalcante misinterprets it and swoons away before Dante can explain his true meaning.
Also, uchiha itachi, the fact that you post 2-4 comments a day is frankly a little sad. Mrs. Tully only expects 2 posts a WEEK, and though she said she would accept a few extras here and there asking small questions, in your case i would say sometimes being an overachiever is not good a maybe a little annoying.
"And I found I stood on the very brink of the valley called the Dolorous Abyss, the desolate chasm where rolls the thunderof Hell's eternal cry, so depthless-deep adn nebulous and dim."(4.7.) I was readinng and I underdstood what most of the levels of hell were and what the sins of the people in them were but I didn't really understand Limbo.
Is Limbo a level of hell or just a waiting place for people not accepted into heaven and not sent to a lower level of hell?
To Uchiha Itachi 2/3/08 8:13 p.pm
I am pretty sure that Virgil is dead because he was sent by Beatrice who lives in heaven. So if he was sent by her then wouldn’t it make sense that he lives in the same place as her. I also believe that Virgil was a citizen of limbo which would be hell. “Since all of these have part in the high name the voice proclaimed, calling me Prince of Poets, the honor that they do me honors them.”( 4.91.) It also says in the intro to Canto 4 that they added him as a sixth in their group. There are only 5 names, not counting Virgil, so it makes sense that he is part of the group.
Ok well i have a little issue. Dante has a level in hell for those who commit suicide, and obviously frowns upon those who chose to mistreat their god-given body in that way. Im assuming then that Florence and Europe at that time had the same view on the issue. And yet in other context, suicide can be honorable. For instance when Brutus commited suicide before being captured in Julius Caesar, Octavian praised him and called him the only honorable conspirator. Also, in Oedipus, Jocasta commited suicide and was most likely not frowned upon.
In cantos XV, i understand that The Wood of Suicide is for those who commited suicide, but why are the tunrned into trees (how do the trees symbolize suicide.)is there a symbolism?
I TINK ALL DIS IZ CRAZEE 'ND IT MAKEZ NO SENCE 2 MEEEE!!!\_/:] BUTT HEY IF I GOT 2 DO DA READING THAN IMMA DO ET. PEACE AND LUVE 2 ALL!:)
I don't understand the battle between the Wasters and the Hoarders in Canto 7. It compares their battle to a "surge Charybdis hurls to sea/ crashes and breaks upon its countersurge," (7.22-23). If this were so wouldn't it be one rock and they are doing a tug-0-war? Later on it says "against enormous weights..." (7.27), which would imply that they each have there own weights. I feel like having two weights being thrown at each other makes more sense, but it is hard to tell in the text. So which is it?
to uchiha itachi (2/3/08, 8:13 PM)
Virgil is dead and stays in Hell among the other Virtuous Pagans.
Virgil was sent to guide Dante through hell by Beatrice, the symbol of Divine Love, along with blessings of the three ladies: the Virgin Mary, Saint Lucia, and Rachel.
Virgil was the author of the Aeneid and a great poet. Dante thinks of him as the voice of Human Reason and as it says in the little summary before the Canto "...Dante cannot come to Divine Love unaided; Reason must lead him" (Canto 2).
umm... I think that answers all of your questions.
Has anyone else noticed how none of the dates or times match. it stills says we're in the beginning of Feb
oops....never mind. they match now
In response to helenoftroy (2/3/08 9:36 PM), I think that because Dante is such a “hater” of Filippe, he probably just wanted to show how much he hated them. Also, he might have wanted to insult his family too. On your note about Virgil allowing this to happen, I think that he knows that as they descend through Hell, Dante is going to have less and less pity for them, so he should "start" his disapproval of the souls now. I do think however that Dante kind of over did it and took it to far in the insult.
Just on a side note, does any one have any idea why in every canto, Dante ends with only two lines as opposed to three? Does he just not have anything to say or does it secretly represent something?
It's probably a literary device, although I am not sure what. Can anyone help out on this one?
Carmen 5:57 PM Response to pookie, 2/29/08 4:58 PM
Sorry, this is kinda late. I think Dante confused Plutus with Pluto. Plutus is god of wealth, so he is the perfect guard for the fourth circle. This circle is for the prodigal and the greedy. In real life, they focused on money, but in hell, they are focusing on the heavy boulders. If Dante meant Pluto, he would have placed him in the center because Pluto is the god of the Underworld. I guess Virgil calls him the Wolf of Hell, because in myths, wolves are greedy. I am not entirely sure about this, but I read about this on a book.
ummm... in canto 11 (not sure what lines) but it talks about a cliff that was knocked off when Christ died caused many earthquakes shook the earth -even hell too i guess-. Is there any symbol-whateva in there somewhere??
to mrincredible <--
wouldnt is jus be like that pic that ms tully showes us in class?
no quite sure whats so sonfusing...i still think that when it reffers to the counter surge its the opposite force that the other hoarder/waster is applying to their opponent. hopefully this might clear stiff up for ya ;D
To Juliet (3/3/08 4:09pm)
I don’t think the symbolic retribution of the suicides (Canto XV) is being stuck as a tree. In hell, the sinners have no power; they are basically doomed for eternity. So all they have is their voice, which I don’t think gives them much but nonetheless they have their voices. In life the suicides did not appreciate the gift of life; instead they caused pain to themselves. So as a tree they are only given power when they sacrifice pain. The pain would then remind them of how precious their life was, because now they have to pay a price. Ultimately their symbolic retribution is the pain of the removal of the branch, not so much that they are a tree.
In response to MrIncredible: (3/3/08 4:21 PM ), and also pookie: (3/3/08 5:13 PM)
The fight between the Hoarders and the Wasters, according to many interpretations, is described as a clash. The Hoarders and Wasters are lined up on opposing sides, with a weight, most likely a boulder. Then, the two sides run at eachother while pushing the weight, and crash into eachother, all while shouting "'Why do you hoard?' and the other: 'Why do you waste?'" (VII.30). Both sides roll the weights back to opposite corners, and clash over and over until Judgement Day.
Re: Spaceman Spiff
I think that the whole suicide issue changes with the times, for example, in war and things like that, it is probably considered more honorable to die by your own hand than by the hand of the enemy... (If you can't die in combat, that is) But if you take your own life simply because you don't like it anymore, it is considered dishonorable because you don't try and give life your best effort. Yeah... Don't think I was much help, but whatever... XP
I am somewhat confused as to how exactly the heretics fit in as part of the allegory of the lion. I am also curious to what exactly classifies a person's sins as herecy. I understood that herecy was the disbelief of god, but Farinata is in this circle, because of his actions against his state for power.
Also, i do not fully understand the symbolic retribution associated with the suicides. I understand why the harpies make them bleed, but am unclear as to why they are trees in the first place.
"and all the pack sprang upon him; with their fangs they opened him and tore him savaggely" Canto 126-128 how does this sybolically relate to the sins of the squanderers? thanks.
Carmen 6:52 PM 3/3/08 Original post
“With all my soul I ask it. / Or let us sit together, if it please him / who is my Guide and leads me through this pit.” (Canto XV, lines 34-36)
“you would not yet be banished from the world / in which you were a radiance among men...” (Canto XV, lines 80-81)
This is a situation where the difference between Dante the pilgrim and Dante the poet is clear, but confusing. In circle 7, Dante comes across Brunetto Latini, a Florentine Guelph, whom Dante praises and glorifies. Latini is a renowned political figure and poet in Florence, during Dante’s time. Also, Brunetto is kind of like Dante’s role model, and for this purpose Dante venerates him and spends the most time with him than any character he meets in hell. However, Dante places him in the seventh circle with the sodomites because he accuses Latini of homosexuality. Even though Dante expresses his political opinions to other characters and considers politics to be important, he places more emphasis in his religion, Christianity. I think that’s why Dante placed Brunetto in hell, because Dante views religion to be the most important aspect. On the other hand, Dante the pilgrim pities Latini.
In response to Big Bad Wolf (3/3/08 5:40 PM)
The heretics allegorically fit in with the lion not necessariley because they were physically violent, but because they did violence to God by denying immortality. This is the least violent of the sins of the lion, but violence nonetheless. As for Farinata, he was an Epicurean. The Epicureans followed the philosophy of Epicurus, who taught that happiness is the absence of pain. Dante interprets this as meaning denial of the afterlife, since Epicurus taught temporal happiness.
The suicides are trees because they rejected they Gift of God, also known as life. Since they did not want life and their body, they are not permitted to have a body as punishment. As pointed out in my class period, the speaking through the bleeding of the suicides is also symoblic. It symbolizes how the people in life wanted to make a statement by hurting themselves. Now, in Hell, they may only speak through hurting themselves, similar to how they left life.
The pack represents the people who collected the worldy goods of the squanderers. In life, the squanderers destroyed their lives by wasting all of their money on unnecessary goods, leaving them, and their heirs broke. The only things the squanderers had left was all of the things on which they wasted their money. What is left is then collected by what is the equivalent to a bank and bankruptcy today, and distributed to all the people that the certain person owed due to his or her squandering. The people that gave the sould hell in life by taking their possesions also hunt them down in Hell, symbolically of course.
Thank you Michalangelo (sorry for typo) for explaining, so does Virgil is stuck in Hell right? So if he went to all of Hell before does that mean the people in Hell can move around where ever they want and talk/etc? And does Virgil get out of Hell at the end of the Inferno or does he stay there and does Beatrice then act as the guide for the other 2 books?
Oh and question to Gaia (ive heard the word Gaia before...please clarify where its from I think i know but i forgot or something) so are we only suppost to do 2 per week if we do more do we lose points or something? its just if i only do 2 a week by the next post ill be overwhelmed and ill have to much to write ^.^ and its easier for me to write smaller multiple things rather than one humongous one. and im not trying to be a overachiever its just fun to post whats on my mind whether its about the Inferno or random stuff (which ill try to do less of).
Sorry for the partly random second paragraph!
I keep thinking about Dante's religious dogma as it relates to our modern conceptions. Does anyone else think about what future cultures will see in our current texts? Dante's discriminatory ideas about who belongs in hell (muslims for instance) make me think about the ways we've broadened our minds as a species but also about the ways
"...I would say more, but there across the sand a new smoke rises and new people come, and I must run to be with my own band...' He turned then...like one who run for the green cloth at Verona...more like one who wins, than those who lose." Canto XV lines 115-122.
Why does Ser Brunetto Latino run away from Dante? Personally, this makes no sense to me as to why he would suddenly run away. Then I read the summary at the beginning of this Cantos, and it told me that he ran away because of 'Divine Compulsion'. But what is 'Divine Compulsion' (I understand the definitions and all that jazz but I don't understand the underling concept of it)?
Through Dante's journey through Hell, nearly all of the circles apply to him. So, if he were to die and go to Hell, where would he (or anybody faced with the same dilemna)end up? I think that it may be possible that he would end up in the circle that punished him for his greatest sin, but if anyone has a real answer, or just a different possible answer, please feel free to respond.
woops I don't know what happened with that, but let me finish my sentence...
that things are still very much the same (for example current discrimination and religious intoleration.)
To >>Pookie<<
I wan to thank you and answer a question. You asked were the whole flamoing hell idea came up. My best guess is that it came after Dante the Poet's time from the Church. Most likely it was during a time the Church was using scare tactics to keep people christians. After all fire seems a lot worase than ice. And as all of you know the Church often used scare tactics or force.
Finally: Thank you for defining sullen and defending my statment. I had in fact meant it exactly the way you stated. Thanks.
RE: Big Bad Wolf (3/3/08 5:40 PM)
I think the reason that the suicides' punishment is to become trees because in human life they deprived themselves of their bodies, so in the Inferno, their punishment is to be deprived of human form.
To >>Thing 1<<
To add on to your comment
They can gain some human traits(Speech) by being injured.
OMG i was so gonna be thing 2!! xD
but yea in the notes in that canto it explains how people who commited suicide are'nt deserving of human bodies, so they are trees. it said more stuff but my book is too far away for my likeing...
RE: Menidict Bias (3/3/08 7:03 PM)
You have a good point. I think that in the book, they are only allowed to speak when they are eaten because in human life they probably felt that they only truly expressed themselves by going against the gift of life. And in hell the only way to have ANY life was by being injured. (symbolic retribution)
To >>Pookie<<
A book can never be to far away. Besides think of that wonderous half-a-calorie you'd burn.
But seriously shouldn't you have your book nearby as reference?
In response to uchiha itachi (3/3/08 6:27 PM):
Virgil lives in Hell and can't leave, even after he guides Dante through Hell. Also, I don't think people can move around in Hell. They all have committed a particular sin, and have to stay in the circle that punishes for that sin. Virgil was called by Erichtho to get a spirit from Judaica (canto 9 p.93 in the Notes), and I think this is why he moved through Hell once before. Also, when Virgil first meets Dante, he tells him that he can only go to the end of Hell and Divine Love (Beatrice) must take over from there. I think this is supposed to symbolize that Human Reason (Virgil) can only take you so far, and at some point you have to let Divine Love take control.
Re: Menidict Bias
Fear the lazy!!
Re: Pookie
Lazy unite!!
Re: Me
I would feel bad if I didn't post something about Inferno, so... The game sounds like fun ^-^ Even though my group needs a catchy title...
FA SHO! haha!! you guys be funneh!!
what i don't quite understand is the hounds tearing apart the people limb-from-limb in canto 13. i know that the hound is supposed to represent the conscience of the abusers, but the tearing of limbs...is he jus being gruesome now?!
LAWLZ.
limb tearing... kinky.
In Canto XIV, i found it quite Ironic how Dante utilizes forms of metals to represent "something else." Little to my knowledge, did i know that that "something else" was taught to me in my western civ class. As i was reviewing my notes for that class i came to realize the significance of the four materials: gold, silver, brass, and iron. The statue itself, made of the materials represented the fall of mankind. As Ovid, one of history's classical poets, explained the four "eras" in a sense of human kind included the GOLDEN age, SILVER age BRONZE/BRASS age, and the IRON age.
As I've learned in western civ, the Roman Enpire was strong and led by great leaders such as Octavian, Pompey, Vespasian, and Constantine. This could have been represented by the IRON leg of the statue. Both strong and bold. On the contrary, the right leg was said to have been made of clay. Obviously not nearly as strong as IRON. In this case this could have been symbolic of the Catholic Church, which eventually fell due to herecy and rule of Augustine.
Catwoman, speak English. Meeowwww.
In response to pookie, 3/3/08 7:37 PM, i feel the same way about Dante's gruesomeness. It just scares me. Just these sins that do not seem like a big deal cause an eternity of torture, which, I for one feel is unfair. Life span was about 40 back then, so because of one sin you managed to do in those 40 years, you are punished forever. I mean, isn't that what prison is for. It makes me want to go to church, haha. Seriously though, I don't agree with Dante's view of hell, although it does make sense. I personally like the view of hell that menadict bias had imposed. A guy with horns who rules his domain. OOOOH! Another thing. (Uh oh im running out of room, hold on....)
Why doesn't Lucifer, or Satan have control of his domain. Isn't almost saying that god and satan are opposites. Good souls under god, bad souls under Lucifer. So, why is he frozen in slush? I would be interested in some opinions, i find this interesting, haha.
speaker o' da dead <-- 3/3/08 823pm
i don't think that catholic things get their own 'domains'
i should prolly know cause im catholic O_< PLEASE correct me if i'm wrong (i totally know what you mean about the church thing >_>
<_<)
In response to speaker of the dead,3/3/08 8:23 PM, Satan is not only the ruler of hell but he is sentenced to his own punishment. His crime, treachery against God. For that satin will sit in the bottom of hell stuck in a block of ice, never to be released. So altough he is in control of his domain, hell, he is still powerless to God. God controls who goes where and why and satin himself earned his spot in that iceblock at the center of the earth.
{Original} I was wondering, why is it that those who cause pain to others deserve less than those who cause pain to themselves? I would think that for someone to be so hateful of life and not deserving to go and take their pain out on others should deserve a greater pain than people who can not appreciate life but only take it out on theirselves. If you are so low you must hurt others for your own enjoyment you should be summoned to a lower place than those who can control themselves from hurting others by only punishing themselves.
Re: Thing 2
It's because your own life is "God's gift"... Something like that... So you're squandering the gift that God gave to you.
{ORIGINAL} "..why are they not punished in the rust-red city if God's wrath be upon them ?" (canto XI, line 73) this comment brought an interesting idea to my mind, why is it that God can preform such a sin as wrath? By His own rules, should he not be punished? Could this idea that God also preforms sins give a sense of imperfection to God ( as though dante were questioning his devotion)?
Yo My PEEPS!!!!!!!!!1
Cooment Post
1*bigbadwolf 3/3/08 (5:40)
Um, sherlock already answered your question about the trees, but maybe you missed it. The harpies pull off the branches of the trees to make them bleed. Obviously, they don't really do this for any particular reason beside that its torture. It's important because bleeding is the only way for them to be able to speak. However, the suisides are trees mostly because the harpies have to pull off the branch for them to talk. This is symbolic because the suiside people chose to give up their ability to speak against the world by killing themselves, lest they can only speak now whilst in pain.
Also, I didn't see the (may i say, brilliant)post that volsung made about the trees. They summed it up beautifully and I tried so, people please stop asking t hat question!
Also, to Carmen 3/3/08 (6:52), Dante never accuses Latini in so many words of homosexuality, because the sodomy in Dante's meaning is not the same meaning as we think of today. Just thought I'd clear that up.
To uchiha itachi, yes, you are supposed to post 2 comments a week. Tomorrow is Wednesday, which is when two posts are due each week, so you need ONE original post and ONE comment post. She said that she would accept the occational "what was the homework... I'm offended!...What the...?" etc. So, if you'd like to fill her requirements and post maybe 3 additional IN A WEEK, be my guest. But, otherwise she said, not necessarily point loss, but she will pull you aside and ask you to stop. So, for the sake of everyone else, keep all your idea blogs on facebook
To Flash 3/3/08 9:49 PM
COMMENT POST
The reason God can perform wrath simply becase he is God. Ever heard the expression, "Playing God?" This when someone (let's name him Joe) does something wrong (such as killing someone) because Joe believes the person deserved it. Joe thinks he can murder the man he saw mugging an old lady, but truthfully, Joe is just as bad. So, no I don't think Dante is contradicting anything, especially his Catholic faith,or that God is perfect. In fact, Dante saying this may show just how much he worships God because he does believe wrath is wrong, yet God is still all mighty and the Perfect Holy One, is he not?
Oh, and uchiha itachi, you asked where my name came from. Gaia is the Goddess of Earth, and she was also the main character in a book I read a little while ago.
In Circle 7 Dante speaks of The Old Man of Crete. Dante says his head is made of gold,silver arms and chest,brasstorso and iron for the rest EXCEPT the one clay foot.I undersand that they represent the ages of men, but what does the clay foot represent?
And why is only the head whole but the rest of the body had a leak, wasting all the suffring of humanity?(14.112-120)
To Achilles
Um, really i didn't get the whole left foot either at first but if you read the notes that John Ciardi put you'll see an expanation. The left foot of clay as you said represents age of man like the whole giant represents but the left foot represents the Holy Roman Empire and the right foot, made of terra cotta represents the Holy Roman Church. So thats whats up with the feet but what i don't get is why the Holy Roman Empire and Church. Anyone get that???
[Original]
I get the vague concept of the sins of the userers, that they were bankers or money lenders. I also understand that money lending was seen as evil due to a certain place in the New Testament that condemns money making due to declaration that money must be made from work, and not from money itself. However, I do not clearly understand the symbolic retribution. All I know is that the souls must look at a purse with their coat of arms. May I please get some clarification on the significance of the symbolic retribution?
PLEASE READ PREVIOUS COMMENTS BEFORE POSTING A NEW ONE. REPEATING QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS HELPS NOBODY. DO US ALL A FAVOR AND STOP SPAMMING THIS BLOG.
In response to the informal spammers:
If I'm not mistaken, Mrs. Tully told us all not to spam randomly. She also told us to speak English, not 1337 or gangsta. I personally don't use smileys in my essays, which are formal. Seeing as these posts are also supposed to be formal, I recommend not speaking in all caps or all lowercase, not using smileys, and making posts that relate to The Inferno or that seem like it comes from a semi-educated person. For the sake of your grades, it would be helpful to those who participate in the stated actions to stop.
Also, reading the previous posts and their questions or answers would be a good idea, since repetition is most likely frowned upon.
It seems odd to me that hell has gaurds. Why would you have someone like Minos, Chiron, Plutus or even Geryon around when it seems to me that all of the circles are like little prisons. I can also see that Dante may have used them as symbols in order to get his point across.
re: the mikado
Well if there weren't any guards who would keep the 'prisoners' in line. Some of the circles do need guarding, Chiron and the centaurs need to be near the river ready to shoot down any soul that tries to get out. The guards do help with the symbolism too.
Thank you so much "Anonymous" for addressing the mangled english a few have decided to write with.
And for everyone else: Think before you write and the effect it will have on you. Especially since Tully knows your screen-names.
Excuse me I meant Mrs. Tully
to mikado:
Well it is a Devine comedy isnt it?
I dont know about you but to me Dante uses such creatures in mockery and irony. Remember what Mrs.Tully said about how all the souls that are in hell got EXACTLY what they wanted? Well The guards are on the same path.
Minos was a mythological King of Crete, he was also born to Zuez and Europa.Befor ethe Trojan war he reigned over Crete, always banishing or welcoming people,like a judge. And as he wanted to Judge, he now sits in Hell deciding upon the souls.
Chiron was the tutor for many heros,like achillies=]
He wanted to be a chief guardian to his students and what happened now?
Plutus was born a noble child. He was extremely wealthy,he was the personification of wealth.In later mythology he is blinded by Zeus, so that he would be able to dispense his gifts without prejudice; he is also lame, as he takes his time arriving, and winged, so he leaves faster than he came. When the god's sight is restored, in Aristophanes' comedy, he is then able to determine who is deserving of wealth, creating havoc.Thats why he guards the Hoarders and the Wasters.
I cant give you a persise theory of why Geryon is a guardin though.
But I think the fact that he was 3 attached men and that in hell he was 3 parts of something random shows something....that i dont understand.
achilleezz
Ah!! The hate!! It burns!
Anyway, does anyone know if there is a time limit to how long it takes to play the Inferno game?
My original:
In Cantos X, Virgil encourages Dante to speak with Farinata who was a a political leader of Dante’s era. Virgil must be well aware that both the war between the Guelphs and politics have changed alot since Farinata met his death. Does anyone suppose what importance Dante the poet found in including these invalid facts in the Inferno?
RE: Achilles:
I understand the concept that every soul in the Inferno got what they deserved, but how could the guards have shown that they "wanted" to guard the several circles of Hell?
Thank you Achilles and Pookie as well...
There is another concern...
Why is Virgil the way he is?
He is Dante's guide, and a strong figure to Dante, but yet he is weak and vulnerable. To Dante he is the perfect guide, but to me it seems that he is almost as vulnerable to these sins as Dante is. He cannot get past the gates of Dis and he must be carried across the boiling river as well. Is his soul able to feel the torment that the other souls feel?
to iko_iko:
I think that perhaps the guards are the ultimate sinners for that particular sin, but because they are all monsters-I don't think any of them are completely human-they aren't treated the same as humans. Also, maybe because they are monsters Dante feels pity for them and decides that because they had to be monsters in real life (which would probably suck a lot) that it was only fair for them to be guarders. Or maybe they had mastered that sin and had therefore had control over the others of that sin. Or maybe even they were able to learn from their sins, and so God put them as overseers of those who couldn't.
hmmm. lots of maybe this or that...Hope this helps.
re: iko_iko
Perhaps Dante the poet put in facts that related to the past and not the present time, in which Dante the pilgrim lived, to help to portray the sins that were commited by the people in Hell that Dante spoke to. Thus, helping the reader to understand that different circles of Hell.
mrs tully someone is using my screen name that isnt me the peeps message and beyond isn't me someone is commiting identity theft...
MIKADO
well can't everyone in hell 'feel' regardless of what circle they're in? i'm not so sure now, that kinda confused me...
to mikado:
I think because Virgil is a human soul he is vulnerable and because HUMAN REASON is vulnerable in the sense that human reason can only take a person so far, and cannot overtake all obstacles in life. I don't think he feels others sinners' torment, because he only feels pain for his own sins, and maybe he has the protection of God due to him following the three ladies in heaven's wishes. But I think that it would still hurt him to go in the boiling blood, because his soul is human(and a human would feel pain if it stepped in boiling blood.:D)
Once again I think that because Virgil was a human, he can only endure what a human could in RL, with some benefits like nothing can kill him again.
TO Flash 3/3/08 9:49 PM
I don't believe Dante ever doubted God's perfection. God's wrath and the sinners' wrath are two different ideas. The sinners' wrath is having and expressing anger, while God's "wrath" is the actual retribution for sin. And in that particular passage, he uses "God's wrath" meaning heavier punishment because all of hell already consists of God's wrath.
Virgil is dead, but it is his spirit that is alive. He is Dante's guide,sent by the three ladies. His punishment is wandering about the citadel of reason... therefore he should not be afraid of anyhting in hell since God has alredy decided his punishment. Maybe his vulnerability is symbolic to the human mind being vulnerable? Maybe i'm just over analyzing this...
Did the book mention which circle of hell the Jews go into? I know that they mentioned something about Judaica in the afternotes, but I wasn't sure if it was related. Since the muslims were in the 9th circle and the Usurers were in one of the lowest (I think 7 or 8) then I would assume the Jews would be in an extremely low circle as well. Hmm...I wonder what specifically about Muslims made Dante feature them prominently in hell when he didn't feature Jewish people. This is interesting because Jews, Christians and Muslims all have shared biblical figures in whom they believe.
Well, I don't really feel/think that Virgil is being puished, he is in the heaven of hell, I mean, the citadel of human reason is not a bad place to be at all. But of course, every human mind is vulnerable, could his vulnerability appear in his writings? Oooh, Mercedes, maybe he is Dante's guide because they share the same weaknesses, therefore, Virgil will notice the things he does as Dante does them on their expedition. Also, Dante could think that Virgil is the perfect guide because he is his idol, and a poet/writer, but also they share these weaknesses. So in a sense, they are writers/poets who write just to write and not for glory, and they both share these weaknesses, so they are practically the same.
That could also be why they are put together, btw the mikado, I am the one way over analyzing this, jeez, haha I so nerdy haha! But this is so cool, we are analyzing the depths of hell.
.... So they share the same weaknesses, but Dante will view them as strengths, which Virgil will try to rehabilitate him from being that way. Just in case if anyone was confused.
Okay, well, i forgot, umm... who is Geryon or something like that. Cause i know he was the monster in the 7th circle of hell. But was he good or bad, cause i couldn't really tell?
Anyhoo, thanks.
M.A.T.I.L.D.A. ;)
In response to Matilda, (3/4, at 8:35 pm) Geryon is the monster of fraud: he has this pleasent face, but a disgusting body. (See the Notes section following Canto 17.) See how this represents fraud by his deceiving face?
-Kaitlyn :)
re: matilda and kaitlyn
I had the same question matilda, but kaitlyn told us who Geryon is, not if he was a friend or foe.
pookie? :\
{ORIGINAL}
Upon rereading Canto 9 lines 115-117 I realized the walls surrounding the heritics in their tombs are red-hot. I believe this is supposed to act as a warning against heresy similar to the way we now know not to touch a red-hot stove.
After seeing that Virgil easily convinces every beast guarding the passage to another circle, I wonder how exactly does his reson of God convince them. As Satan is God's betrayer, how is it that these creatures or servants of Satan, are suddenly chaanged by Virgil's word.
Also, how exactly does the syymbolic retribution of the violent against art work. "Their eyes burst with their greif." Canto 17 line 43. Art is the form of work and ethics i think, so i am clueless as to how being focused on the coat of arms in the purses. thanks.
in comparison to Uchiha Itachi 3/3/08 6:27 PM
Is Virgil with the virtuous pagans? It says in canto 22 that he has experienced the place and in various other parts he says stuff like that he also has the knowledge of the places in Hell, but as the response to him being unable to move around in Hell how could he know this? He is the symbol of human reason, but how does Virgil know this information someone answer this question for me.
From before someone wrote that the Black Guelfs supported the Pope so did the White Guelfs support anyone? Since Dante was a white Guelf did he support anyone?
re: Chihiro
the white guelphs supported pope boniface (forgot whinch one) and the black guelphs opposed of him. I'm not quite sure WHO they supported. hope that helped
In response to big bad wolf's comment, Virgil isn't convincing the beast of Hell to let him and Dante pass. I think the beast are somewhat intimidated by the fact that 1) he is able to even travel that far in hell, and 2) he pocesses a sort of authority that forces them to obey.
Also the violent against art are otherwise known as the users, meaning that they took advantage of art to make themselves famous. The coat of arms on the purses are those of famous Florentine families. I think their symbolic retribution as something to do with them either regretting their fame (wishing to be forgotten) or wishing they were more well-known. I could be totally wrong but I hope that helps a little.
In response to chihiro and pookie,
The White Guelphs didn't really support anyone; they were the group who were against papal influence.
This can be found here
-Kaitlyn :)
re: kaitlyn
OOPPPSS!!! my mistake I got the two mixed up...Um, where can it be found??
In Canto XVIII the panderers and seducers are punished by recieving lashes by horned demons. These demons are supposed to symbolize their own individual consciences that are making them feel pain.
I find it interesting that the panderers and seducers receive this punishment when everyone who is in Hell is eligible to recieve this punishment because they all have consciences that have been wrongedin some way.
"Once there, I peered down;and saw long lines of people in a river of excrement that seemed the overflow of the world's latrines."(18.112)
First there was a river of boiling blood and now there is a river of bodily waste. How is this river of waste symbolic retribution for the panderers and/or the flatterers?
Speaking of Canto XIX,
Wow, I have to say that out of all the circles of Hell, Bolgia three is absolutely the worst punishment that we have read so far. I mean stuck upside down in a hole with their feet on fire. And on top of all that when new sinners come they are dropped into the crevice of the rock never to be seen again. Wow, I would not want to be a simoniac
Found a really cool website for miscellaneous info. Please explore, you may find a very helpful tidbit of information www.englishare.net/literature/POL-DC-Inferno-Notes.htm
I'm kind of confused about the sodomites. So they are in the ground with their feet sticking up because before they died they were given a chance to repent but being stuck in a hole? and its like the opposite of the baptismal fonts because the priest was in the hole closer to the pool?
i didn't really understand it.
re: Thing 1
well the sodimites are punished like the guys (i think the people who were payed to kill) so they didnt get to repent like those guys. its like the baptismal thing because next to the giant pool of holy water, there was shallow holes for the priests to stand so they wouldnt have to bend down to pick up the babies every time there was one to dip. Do you kinda get it?
RE: Volsung (4/3/08; 4:01 pm)
Not only do the souls have to look at the coat of arms on their purse which is a constant reminder of what landed them there, but the purses also act as weights constantly weihging the sinners down.
To: Thing1 and captain underpants
The sodomites are in Circle 7 and they aren't buried in the sand but have to sit/stand on it for all eternity. The simoniacs are the ones who are buried with their burning feet sticking up( the worst sinners had the highest flames). It is like the opposite of a baptismal font because the sinners are in the holes up-side down and the fire is the opposite of water.
In Canto XIX, i found it quite interesting how dante reacted to seeing Simon Magus in the 8th circle. To be more specific he was a memeber of Simoniacs. Apparently, Simon was someone who sold religious offices. I felt that at this part in Dante's Infoerno, we see the true emotion of Dante and his outlook upon simony and Simon himself. I my perspective, we are given the chance to analyze Dante's phsycologic and emotional capacity.
re: turtleheart
The river of waste is symbolic of the false flatteries. The excrement is "the true equivalent of their false flatteries on earth." Therefore, they are literally experiencing their own falsities. In other words, they were full of crap (metaphorically), so now they have to stand in it (literally).
(Original)
In canto XIV, I don't quite understand the symbolism of the different punishments given to the sinners... do their different positions represent varying levels of pain and punishment?
RE:Merlin
In Canto XIV each type of sin takes a different position on the burning plains. The blasphemers strech out, the Sodomites go in cicles, and the Usurers huddle.
Each position represents a way that each sinner went against the order of life.
The blashemers, going straight against god, get the most amount of fire rain on them.
The sodomites, choosing to not concieve a child, run in circles, to represent how they didn't contribute to the continuation of life.
The Usurers, the ones who would not except art for what it is, huddle, to continue to keep out the rest of the world/hell.
-Peter Pan
On pg 162 in canto XVIII (18) lines 127-34 the short story about Thais. Read the final note of the canto about her. It explains Virgils little speech about Thais.
I'm not sure how to understand that note. Does it mean she sent her slave to a man asking if they appreciated the slave? Or is it asking if he appreciated her? What does it mean?
Also, how is the story relevant to the transitioning between the cantos? Why is there this story right before the next canto?
P.S. pg. 166, line 2, as a side comment, is the any possible conception that the context of the quote, "pandering for silver and gold," when talking about the Simoniacs, match the context of the song "Silver and Gold" from the classic clamation movie "Rudolph the Red Nose Reigndeer?"
P.P.S. (if thats possible)
Note the time of this comment
Pookie,
The link on my last comment doesn't work, so
try this one
If not, search Guelphs and Ghibellines at Wikipedia. ^_^
kaitlyn :)
Re: Pookie
Thank you so the whites Supported? and blacks supported someone else? hmm thats interesting since the white guelfs got exiled right so wouldnt they not support the pope and the blacks would support the pope instead? that makes more sense to me. If anyone has opinions on this please post them.
Opps! Sorry Pookie didnt see the next comment and thank you kaitlyn for the clarification, This topic is answered and i don't have confusion on it! =D
In Canto XX, it talks about the Fortune Tellers in Hell. How come Fortune Tellers go to Hell, but in mythology, people are allowed to go to oracles and such to find out their future?
I can try to answer the question that Mercutio asked, but it probably won't work so well.
Fortune Tellers go to Hell because their fortunetelling goes against Christian beliefs
Mythology...depends on what kind of Mythology you're talking about; specify pileaze? :)
kaitlyn :)
to mercutio:
I agree with kaitlyn. But i also think the reason they are in hell is because the future is only for God to know and is the will of God. If someone goes around spreading the future, they are dealing in business that is not for them to know.
to: mercutio
In agreeance to Kaitlyn and etc The people in mythology couldve been telling the future, but not in Gods power, so they were in Hell because of doing fortune telling that isnt from God, so they got punished
to:mercutio
agreed, but another thought. Maybe it could have been Dante's personal view or the view of the Renaissance time period that Fortune Tellers were sinners for I guess lieing and halucinating...:D
correction lying. not lieing. :D oops
In response to Achilles' post:
Geryon, in Greek mythology, was a fearsome giant of three heads, three bodies, and six legs. He owned a dog named Orthrus that confronted Heracles. Orthrus was killed, provoking Geryon to pursue Heracles in hopes of avenging his dog. He had chased Heracles to the river Anthemus. Unfortunately [for Geryon], Heracles had shot an arrow dipped in the blood of a Hydra [a mythological multiple-headed serpent], and was instantly killed when the arrow pierces through his head. This is one account of the many that told of Geryon's death. Even though Geryon was portrayed as a warrior, in Note 1 on Page 154, it states that Geryon's form in Hell [Innocent face with a reptilian body - "a monster with the general shape of a dragon but with the tail of a scorpion, hairy arms, a gaudily-marked reptilian body, and the face of a just and honest man..." (Canto XVII, Note 1, Page 154).] was completely of Dante's own invention.
In Canto XXI i found it significant that this is one of the few times we have seen Dante threatened by danger. In this case Malabranche was the demon who attempted to grab him with his claws. Also, we go back to a reference of past present and future, as the head of the Malabranche informs Dante and Virgil to be cautious of a fallen bridge along the way. “It was yesterday, five hours later than now, / That the twelve hundred and sixty-sixth year fell / Since the road here was ruined” (XXI.110–112). (1,266 years, one day, and five hours before the present time)
Carmen 9:03 PM 3/9/08 Original Post
“Forever round this path / Ulysses and Diomede move in such dress, / united in pain as once they were in wrath” (Canto XXVI, lines 55-57)
It is clear that Dante is influenced by Virgil and reveres Rome. Virgil wrote the Aeneid, and presents a Roman view; Dante admires Virgil, and therefore glorifies Rome. Ulysses was an enemy of Aeneas and automatically is an enemy of Rome. We can see Dante’s attack on Antiquity. He obviously does not believe in the Greek values, so he places a great emphasis on Christian values. According to Dante, Ulysses and Diomede were reckless and behaved fraudulently by Christian standards. I think this is why Dante placed them so deep in Hell.
to Mercutio 6/3/08 1:38 PM
My first response to your question was that Christianity might have rejected mythological ideas. But if that were so, it's interesting that Dante chooses to include mythological creatures as monsters and guards in his hell. Can anyone clarify this?
It’s kind of surprising how Navarrese’s soul tricks the two demons in Canto XXII. The ministers of Hell seem too powerful to be fooled by the sinners that they torture so effortlessly. However, the demons are captives in hell as well, because in Canto XXIII we find out that they cannot leave the Fifth Pouch. Just as every sinner is assigned a specific place, so are the demons. They are fallen angels that probably get tortured for their disobedience to God just as the sinners do. The creatures also don’t learn in hell so they continue to make the same mistakes in the underworld.
Reply to Mercutio
I think the reason those that go to fortune tellers aren't in hell is because they didn't actually look into the future, but the tellers did so they are in hell. I know its a fine line but it is the only plausible explanation I can think of.
In Canto XXV, lines 25 to 33 it seems like this character, Cacus, could potentially be in two circles. The one with the murderers and in C8 B7 with the theives. But I suppose this circle is more appropriate because of what he killed.
Cantos XXI and XXII
Does anyone have an idea on why Malacoda, the leaders of the demons, told Virgil and Dante that the brigde to the sixth bolgia was broken? I feel he had a motive in doing so because Malacoda had some of his demons escort Virgil and Dante and after they slipped away the demons seemed to be in a frantic search to find them. Help me please.
In canto XXV, "When he had finished, the thief-to his disgrace-raised his hands with both fists making figs, and cried: "Here, God! I throw them in your face!" (1-3)
Vanni is the one that insults god, but why does he do this? I know we discussed in class that beings in hell are deprived of human reason, but the Grafters have enough reason to diminish their own pain inside hell by coming partially out of their liquid prison and trying to avoid the demons. This displays basic human survival instincts, along with some more complex functions of threat recognition and the ability to manipulate the demons. So, with this in mind, why would Vinni threaten God, and bring more pain upon himself than before?
To respond to Bilbo baggins, Malecoda tricked the poets, he was planning to do them harm. Dante later finds out that Malecoda lied about the bridge, leading to the scene where Virgil guides Dante up the wall of the Bolgia.
" In that sweet season when the face of him who lights the world rides north, and at the hour when the fly yeilds to the gnat"( Canto XXVI, line 28-30)Is Dante merely talking about spring(the season) or does he have deeper meaning in these lines?
In Canto XXVI, The Evil Conselors. it says there sin was, "to abuse the gifts of the Almighty, to steal his virtues for lower purposes." I am unclear on the exact "gifts of God" that they are refering to, since there are so many they could be.
In response to adam (10/3/08 5:23 PM)
I do believe that Vanni does this with the knowledge that he will be punished. However, I think he does it anyway, because he is so enraged, he gets to the point where he can't hold back. I mean he has hit the lowest point. He's in hell, being harshly pained by viscious reptiles. I'm sure after a while of that punishment, you'd start to go crazy in Hell and just think What the heck? Why does it matter?
I hope that helped a little. :)
In response to Adam:
In my opinion, I felt that Vanni Fucci was just one angry guy. I don't understand what you said about the Grafters but remember that Vanni was a thief, being punished by having their hands bound behind their backs and being attacked and burst into flames by reptiles. Your comment does bring one question to mind though. The thieves hands, as explained by Ciardi, were bound behind their back yet Vanni "raised his hands with both fists making figs" (Canto XXV, Line 2). How did Vanni raise his fists when they were behind his back?
In response to Adam (10/3/08 5:23 PM)
You have made a very interesting point. My best bet would be that Vanni does not have human reason, as you said. However, in life the Grafters were clever with their intellect. In Hell, they are punished, but still retain their abilities, but not using it reasonably. Vanni was a thief, which doesn't necessarily mean he was clever with words or wit. He, like Francesca da Rimini still isn't fully aware of everything going on. I assume that as Francesca blamed everything on love, Vanni blames something else, and still thinks he is hot stuff in the same way that Francesca thought she was completely innocent. As well as the individual thoughts, the Grafters were supposed to stay in their liquid prison but they occasionally came out, resulting in capture. The Grafters lacked the reason to stay in the pitch, despite the fact that they have seen others be caught and torn apart. The same theory most likely applies to Vanni as well, since he decides to make a gesture to God that is the equivalent of "screw you." As for the basic instinct of survival, I believe that the people in Hell are dead. I also believe that bursting into flames is an unnatural, unavoidable threat. Vanni is still angry at God, so he wouldn't mind making God angrier.
In responce to Takashi (10/3/08 6:39 PM)
Apparently he broke free, or his hands were not yet bound since he had just been reformed.
In response to Bilbo Baggins:
Malacoda lies about the bridge over the sixth bolgia because [according to the Friar] "Once at Bologna I heard the wise discussing the Devil's sings; among them I heard that he is a liar and the father of lies" (Canto XXIII, Lines 139-141). I interpreted this as the Devils, though being punishers of the sinners, are also sinners themselves, as the Friar points out. It also felt like Malacoda wanted to lie to Virgil and Dante to throw them off course because the demons helped them and wanted to get Virgil and Dante back for that. I am confused by the fact that Virgil actually believed Malacoda. In Canto XXI, Lines 65 and 66, Virgil says "I know these matters: / I have been through this once and come back safely" Doesnt this mean that Virgil has already passed through this point and therefore would've known if there was or wasn't a bridge over the sixth bolgia?
If any read far enough to the Bolgia of Chaos, I dont understand in what sence do they mean chaos?
Like were they...hyper all the time or insane?
I'm a little unclear about the fourfold analysis for panderers and seducers. I am assuming seducers have the same meaning as today but a panderer, do they also just convince people to sin. Is the difference that seducers use or offer sex? Other than that they seem like the same thing to me. In general with the fourfold analysis I think it is difficult to distinguish some of the categories. For moral/pshycological, I basically said that Dante thought it was immoral, but that seems way to vague. Then for spiritual, I said that adultry is a sin. Well both those answers seem way to obvious. Can anyone help me with this??? Thanks.
Achilles-
Perhaps when they say chaos, they meant (as the definition on dictionary.com says)a state of utter confusion or disorder. They were not, however, hyper all the time or insane.
As i've continued to review past cantos, i come to realize just how visual Canto XXIV. When Virgil and Dante make there way into the 7th Bolgia, serpent like demons chase after the naked sinners who committed the crime of theft. When i read of the serpent like creatures wrapping around the hands of the sinners, i instantly though of .. handcuffs believe it or not. As seen in todays CSI or police type movies. :) This i found funny, but ideal like to todays society, and the punishment we see givein to robbers. But unlike Dante's visualization of hell, its quite grusome to know that the sinners caught oh fire after being coiled around by the snakes. (most definitely not seen in OUR society)
In response to legolas 10/3/08 6:30 PM,
Thank you for the help. I do see that insanity had to have taken place at some point. Endless punishment must make you at least a little mad...
In response to Achilles (10/3/08 7:37 PM)
There is no Bolgia of chaos per se, but there is a Bolgia of Discord. In canto XXVIII, lines 1-3, "Who could describe, even in words set free/ of metric and rhyme and a thousand times retold,/ the blood and wounds that now were shown to me!" Dante describes the scene as indescribable. These sinners sowed discord, or caused confusion and chaos in society. There are three different levels of this, Religious, political, and kinsmen. These sinners were not hyper, they fall underneath the sins of the leopard, so they are evil, conspiring people as opposed to those sinners that fall underneath the lion. Those were the hyper and violent ones. The souls in Bolgia nine abused their intellect by causing conflict and chaos. Essentially, they sowed chaos in the fabric of society.
(Original)""That one nailed across the road counselled the Pharisees that it was fitting one man be tortured for the public good. Naked he lies fixed there, as you see, in the path of all who pass; there he must feel the weight of all eternity..."" (XXIII.112-117).
I'm slightly confused about who this person crucified in the circle of the hypocrites is. Did they mention a name and I just missed it? I think it's interesting that among people cursed to drag lead cloaks around, there would be a random crucified naked sinner. Why does he get a different punishment from the rest?
In respons to Catwoman (10/3/08 7:56 PM):
You're right!! The demons are also symbolic in that they spear (or grapple?) pretty much anything that they can, just as the grafters got their fingers into whatever they could. "...and stay below, unless you want a taste of a grappling hook..." (XXI.53-54). So not only the pitch which the grafters are immersed in is symbolic, but the demons that guard the place too.
To Cassius:
The crucified man in the middle of the hypocrites is Caiaphas. He was the High Priest of the Jews who advised them to crucify Jesus for the self-interest of the public. His symbolic retribution is that he carries the weight of the world's hypocrisy just as Jesus carried the weight of everyone's sins at his crucifixion.
Are the transformations of the Five Noble Thieves Permanent or can they change back? Do Agnello and Cianfa stay together for the rest of eternity?
Post a Comment