Post two entries on the weblog each week, with your own ideas and reactions to Dante's Inferno or your responses to another student's entry. Always include your screen name in your posting. For an original posting, include the quotation from The Inferno with its canto and line numbers at the beginning of your remarks. For a response, include the other student's screen name, and the date and time of their comment.
"And when I looked down from their faces, I saw that each of them was hideously distorted between the top of the chest and the lines of the jaw;" (Canto XX lines 10-12)
Uh... Well, It's the fortune tellers. They're in hell because they were pretty much lying about having the ability to tell the future. God is the only one who can predict future events...
Ive posted this comment already but i still need a answer
Does anyone know about the history of Virgil in Hell? Dante says numerous times that he has been to places in Hell that are not only limbo, he would be in Limbo, but he's been to other parts of Hell... Is Virgil special or can people in Hell go anywhere anytime, because he's been to other parts of Hell before he was Dantes guide.
Question about the 9th circle of Hell its made of the 3 rivers in Hell and tears right? So is it made out of Blood, Swamp Water, Tears and lava? since thats what the 3 rivers in Hell are made of (the tears from the people in circle 9). Are they made of these 3? this isnt much of a question just my thoughts right now, (frozen lava?).
Throughout Inferno, Dante the poet constantly clarifies the geography of his Hell when Virgil gives lectures to Dante the pilgrim. For example in Canto XIV Virgil explains The Old Man of Crete, which is the statue from which the four rivers of Hell came from. The crumbling statue represents the decline of mankind. Virgil explains it as being composed of gold, silver, brass, iron and terra cotta. Dante the poet tends to leave some of the geography of hell unclear probably to inspire you to imagine and to add the sense of mystery to his poem.
I am having a trouble understanding what the grafters did while they were alive. and also (on the fourfold method worksheet) with the spirtual level of the flatterers.
I was reading Circle 8 Bolgia 10 in Canto XXIX and was unsure of what exactly the punishment of the Falsifiers was. The introduction says, “They are punished by afflictions o f every sense: by darkness, stench, thirst, filth, loathsome diseases, and shrieking din. Some of them, moreover, run ravening through the pit, tearing others to pieces.” I understand the part about them tearing each other to pieces but what does the rest mean. Would it be that they are tortured with thirst and diseases?
In response to Chihiro Ogino(11/3/08 12:51). The 9th Circle is made of the three rivers of hell which come from the tears of the Old Man of Crete. I would guess since the circle is frozen that the blood river is cooled by the time it reaches the botton. I know that the wings of Satan freeze the water when he flaps. So the river would be made out of the tears of the Old Man of Crete which are the 3 rivers of Hell.
I was reading Circle 8 Bolgia 9 about the Soweres of Discord and it said, "Behind us, warden of our mangled horde, the devil who butchers us and sends us marching waits to renew our wounds with his long sword when we have made the circuit of the pit; for by the time we stand again before him all the wounds he gave us last have knit. XXVIII.36" So acccording to this they walk around but in the picture in class it looked like they were sitting. Does anyone know what they are actually doing?
to michaelangelo: I think that they do go around and around, yet are unable to continue to go around because they are chopped up by the demon so many times, their severed bodies don't contain the strength to actually walk fully. Therefore, I believe that the picture in class shows that they are "sitting," but actually in truth are probably crawling slowly around and around back to the demon as they heal, to only get mutilated again.
This is not really a response to Sherlock 10/3/08 7:44 PM (I think it is actually 3/10/08) but it is more of an agreement. But as a response, I think that the Panderers are the same as the seducers, but they just don’t do it in a sexual way. It is more like they are convincing people to do something for them. Like Sherlock, I don’t really know what to fill out for the other things. It seems like I am righting the same thing for each topic. I understand the rest of the groups…I think, it is just the Panderers and Seducers. Help?
It says in the summary (paragraph 2): "..the sticky pitch...it serves also to hide them from sight, as there sinful dealings were hidden from mens eyes." This means that because they stole from others through trickery (I believe)and slyly tricked people without them knowing, they were blinded by the waste around them....
Sherlock and Mr Incredible 11/3/08: I think that the panderers sell people they know and seducers actually seduce people for their own benefit. For example Venedico Caccianemico is a a panderer because he procured his sister to win the favor of the Marquis, and Jason of the Argonauts is a seducer because he himself seduced Medea and Hypsiple. (cantos xviii)
It seems like whenever Dante sees some terrible sight, he cries and can't look away or move on. I understand that it is a terrible sight to see all of these tormented shades everywhere, but they are in Hell, so they should deserve to be there with their punishment. Just as one example, in Canto XXVIII he sees the shades hacked and torn, so he weeps. It just seems odd to me, especially because he has been seeing terrible things the whole journey. Also, why does Virgil always try to get him away? Every time Dante begins to feel pity, Virgil tells him to stop. Is this just because he does not want Dante to feel bad for people who did dreadful things? Or is there some secret reason, like if he feels pity then the guards and the shades will see his true feelings, which would be bad.
It seems like whenever Dante sees some terrible sight, he cries and can't look away or move on. I understand that it is a terrible sight to see all of these tormented shades everywhere, but they are in Hell, so they should deserve to be there with their punishment. Just as one example, in Canto XXVIII he sees the shades hacked and torn, so he weeps. It just seems odd to me, especially because he has been seeing terrible things the whole journey. Also, why does Virgil always try to get him away? Every time Dante begins to feel pity, Virgil tells him to stop. Is this just because he does not want Dante to feel bad for people who did dreadful things? Or is there some secret reason, like if he feels pity then the guards and the shades will see his true feelings, which would be bad.
After reading canto XXXI, about the giants, i am unclear as to why they are placed between the circles of Fraud. The giants insulted Gods as their main offence, so wouldn't that make them heretics? Also they seem as creatures to fit better allegoriclly in the circles of the Lion. Also, some of them are in the Malbolge only because of their natures as giants, and from no particular sin.
{ORIGINAL} I found it interesting how there are many opportunities to commit a sin, but he obviously hasnt. These opportunities include lust in beatrice. [2.52-2.58] and the sins of the evil councilors.[cantos XXVII] and many more. I've also found the same pattern in Willy Wonka & the Chocolate facotry. There are 5 kids but only 4 traps to narrow it down. Willy Wonka never set a room to eliminate Charlie. This makes Charlie seem the most inncent, but in reality he only got a chance to show his flaws at the begining when he was going to sell his golden ticket for money. Dante the poet didnt set a trap for Dante the farmer, only stated the opportunities.
To mr incredible: I think Dante was, in the case of the the sowers of discord, moved to tears simply because this seemed like a particularly cruel punishment. And i think he does understand that these people are in hell for a reason, but if you ask me these punishments do at times seem cruel and maybe uncalled for.
To iko_iko: I agree. We actually discussed this in class today on how most of the sins you see people punished in hell for are sins Dante was tempted by in his own life.
Thank you to both adam and takasihi for your comments. I got it now.
In response to sherlock, I believe that the panderers are the people who set situations up but don't act in them and they are refered to as "pimp" in the Inferno a few times. An example is in Canto V when Francesca says, "That book, and he who wrote it, was a pander" saying the book caused it.
Honestly, I'm having a lot of trouble with the fourfold analysis as well so I don't think I would be of much help to you. So if someone could help me with that too i would appreciate it.
In response to junie b. jones (10/3/08 9:56 PM), yes the Five Noble Thieves can change back and forth. The symbolic retribution is that in life they sole things to make a living and formed their whole being around stealing, now in death, the only way they can possess a body is by stealing it from others. In canto twenty five, page 213, it says "In life they took the substance of others, transforming their own. So in Hell their very bodies are constantly being taken from them, and they are left to steal back a human form from some other sinner."
"Among the thieves I found five who had been your citizens, to my shame,..." (XXVI.4-5) Most of the historical characters Dante runs into in hell are Florentines. I'm sure this is because this was where Alighieri had been limited to until up to his exile. In this particular passage, Dante remarks his shame in so many Florentines populating hell. And this leads me to wonder if this was his true attitude towards his fellow citizens before 1300. Did he feel that Florence was corrupt and unsafe even before his exile? He obviously respects his hometown by praising the intellect of even the damned. Florentines recognize the Pilgrim by his fine speech. So what was the Poet's attitude outside of his comedy?
I found it strange that, as the deeper in Hell Dante goes, the more he offers fame for the sinners. In the earlier Cantos, alot of the sinners were reluctant to reveal their name, as in the case of the unknown Florentine suicide. Upon questioning, the sould simply speaks in riddles. However, in the deeper Bolgias, Dante is confronted with people that want to be known. Dante begins to offer fame in exchange for names. In my reading, I did not come across andy sinner that completely refused to let any personal information out, with exception of Bocca Degli Abbati. Does anybody have a possible reason why this is?
"Between his legs all his red guts hung with the heart, the lungs, the liver, the gall bladder, and the shriveled sac that passes shit to the bung" (Canto XXVIII, lines 25-28).
In my opinion, this is definitely the most disgusting scene in the book so far. I didn't understand why people would think the grafters were so horrible, but this one was pretty bad. Also, I agree with bilbo baggins. I'm really confused with the four fold analysis. Can anyone help us?
Carmen 7:34 PM 3/11/08 Response to junie b. jones, 3/10/08 9:56 PM
The transformations of the five noble thieves are for Dante’s purposes to show the symbolic retribution of the thieves. Dante expresses the grotesque punishment for these thieves. Since they stole something from someone in their life time, they will steal one another’s forms and also will have their own forms stolen in hell. The five noble thieves exchange forms with each other. In the end of the canto, Dante mentions about how Buoso waits for his transformation. I don’t think these transformations are permanent because otherwise, they won’t have enough bodies to steal. Also, I think they steal each other’s bodies till eternity because that is their punishment. But in this canto, it makes it seem like these transformations are permanent.
In response to Zeus and Bilbo Baggins (11/3/08 7:20 PM)
I am also having a bit of trouble with the fourfould analysis. It seems to me like just rewording the same thing in four different ways. I think its pretty vague.
So far, I have filled out my chart using the following requirements:
Literal or historical- What the sinners actually did. Ex: The fortune tellers claimed to have divine insight.
Political- What the sinners did to the law or the community. Ex: The theives stole the substance of others, which is against the law.
Moral or psychological- How the sinner did something wrong morally or psychologically. Ex: The flatterers took advantage of the weak minded, which was immoral because taking advantage of people is not good.
Spiritual- How the sin offends god, or the pilgrim soul. I'm not sure what a pilgrim soul is, but I thought it was something along the lines of the sould of a person that has been untainted or misled by sin. Ex: The sins of the panderers and seducers goes directly against the Bible (God), and causes people to do something they would not have normally done, leading them to sin as well (pilgrim soul).
I'm sorry if I come across as vague. Since I'm unclear myself, don't use this as the law of the fourfold analysis; only use this as some suggestions.
In response to junie b. jones: The symbolic retribution of the theives is that they either are bound with snakes around their bodies and hands, are pursued and bitten by reptiles so that they burst into flame, or must share their bodies with repiles/other sinners. The Five Noble Thieves received the last punishment and their transformations are not permanent because they must undergo this shapeshifting for all eternity, which is incredibly painful. Agnello (human) and Cianfa (reptile) must share their bodies, and this is pure torture because their forms are so different. I hope that helped answer your question!
To Sherlock: I've spent time thinking about the differences between the panderers and the seducers too. They are in the same area, so of course their crimes are rather similar and therefore difficult to differentiate. The dictionary definition of a panderer is one who: procures customers for whores (a pimp) and/or a person who serves or caters to the vulgar passions or plans of others. I think the spiritual implication of both panderers and seducers is that they lead others to sin (to stray from the light and reason of god.) In my opinion,the political aspect of the panderers and seducers is connected to the spiritual aspect because the sinners in this circle break governmental laws, but they break divine law b leading others to sin.
Does anyone else think it is interesting that Odyseus and Diomedes are in hell. I didn't know that the Romans believed that they are descendants from the Trojans. So they would probably share the Trojan point of view. I think it's funny how in Greek history Odyseus and Diomedes are made out to be great epic heros. Then in Trojan and Italian history, Ulysess and Diomede are cheap traitors. It seems that is common throughout the book, that you have to understand Dante is a Florentine and considered how he feels about therse people. When you consider that factor, it makes his depictions make a bit more sense.
To sherlock: I also think its a bit unfair how Dante can just invent a story about the later years of Ulysses' life and use it as a basis to put him in hell. Makes one wonder how much of the other accounts of the sinners in hell can actually be believed.
In response to Luna Lovegood (3/11/08 7:18PM), Outside or previous to the Divine Comedy Dante was very involved in Florence. He was a politician. Up to 1300 Dante was one of seven elected officials running Florence. He was very proud of Florence. When the Black Guelfs overthrew his party, he and all other officials were exiled. I think once the pope took over Florence all the White Guelfs were seeing no bright future and their lives went to hell, literally. Even Dante began to venture toward hell. He found himself in the Dark Wood of Error. When all White Guelfs lost their beloved city to rebels they really had no positive way to turn. I think Dante was very proud of his city and there are sinners in every city and to incorporate a few for Florence just makes it easier for Dante to connect to the people in Hell. Its not we have seen a ton of people from Florence, it’s a big city and hell is a huge place lets remember there are a lot of people in Hell and only a few from Florence; that’s pretty good.
I too think it is both interesting, yet quite frightening when we see familiar faces in hell, for which we would not think would belong there. Actually, it is quite aggravating to me to see sinners in hell for something that didn't cause to much pain. For example, the Violent Against Nature and Art, yes that was quite awhile ago. But even in the Cantos now, I still see ridiculous sins in the lowest levels of hell who capture who I feel aren't so guilty. OH! The Sowers of Discord, another example, what sin ( I know what sin by the way, its a figure of speech) is bad enough to have your limbs cut off for an eternity you yourself have only performed one wrongful sin. Doesn't it seem like you would serve a sentence in hell, like prison, or a time-out. I don't know but I almost feel bad for these sinners.
Nobody may need to know this but just in case here is an explanation of the "grappling hooks" used by the demons upon grafters.
In modern times we think of a grappling hook as a three-pronged metal hook used to attatch to and climb things. BUT the imagery of the grapples always appears as pitchporks.(Anyone notice the pun)
The reason for this is because originally the grapples we know as pitchforks where once used as weapons. An example is the roman gladiators. Certain types og gladiators used weighted nets and pitchforks to trap then stab their opponent to death. And so as the battle wore on the gladiators would grapple with each other. So the pitchfork-like weapon used became known as a grappling hook, literally a fighting hook.
Hope this helps someone and if not...oh well...at least you learned something!
I don't really have exact lines, but i find it interesting that, though it is already stated in Ciardi's summary, that Dante blames Mohamet and Ali for the schism(split) between Christianity and Mohammedanism. Basically, I think that Mohammedanism is the Muslim religion. The Crusades took place near Dantes time, and they were over The Holy Land (Jerusalem). Catholics believed Muslims were to blame for the Schism in the Church after the Crusades, but that's not true. Like the worksheet Mrs. Tully gave us said, Dante shows his ignorance about this subject in this canto (XXVIII).
(Comment Post) In Response to Hoshigaki Kisame ^10/3/08 11:24PM^
Yes, this is true that the line you wrote describes the fortune tellers. However, I don't think that all of them "lied" about seeing the future. I think that some probably did lie simply for attention, sort of like the modern day scandal of people who are truly gay amd those who are "gay" for the attention. But, I think there are others who actually believed that they were "gifted." They were brainwashed or simply delusional and weren't trying to deny there was a God or say that they were his equal, but just foolish. I think that this shows us the harshness of Dante. Though he makes his character (Dante the Pilgrim) have sympathy and seem to think that some of the sinners didn't belong in hell, it's inexplicably clear that Dante the Poet does not. He is cold and has very set ideas about the world and everyone in it. I think Dante should have a more open mind and gain a little more knowledge about some of the subjects he chooses to comment on. Dante is much too Mideval Christian (of course, because he lived during the Middle Ages and was Christian), who were very closeminded about a lot of thinks, to write a book about what real hell most likely looks like.
What I ment by 'lying' was that in Dante's view, only God could have the power to tell the future and therefore all fortune tellers were lying. But I remember hearing someone say something about how anyone could see the future but only God could tell the future. In this case, it would be against the bible to tell the future, especially for a price.
I find it interesting where Dante places the Evil Counselors. It almost seems like this circle was created for the sole purpose of putting enemies to Florence's heritage. Also they inhabitants of this bolgia seem to have been wise men, who made tricky, undermining and fraudulent decisions, which resulted in the misfortune of others. It is also interesting to see the way Odesseus is viewed by Dante.
In Canto XXXI, lines 31-33, "THey stand in the well from the navel down; and stationed round its bank they mount guard on the final pit of Hell." Why are the giants standin from just the naval down, why not fully out of the pits? Might this be another mockery on the baptismal fonts of Italian churches? And why does there need to be guards around the ninth circle of hell, everybody is frozen in the completely solid lake(of ice) none of the sinners could possibly move, let alone escape!?
In response to catwoman - I totally understand what you mean about the snakes reminding you of handcuffs. I was wondering if the author wanted to potray them that way or if he wanted them to take place of cop on the hunt of a fleaing suspect. If you think about it in present day terms, we know that most snakes have terrible eyesight and rely on their sense of smell to detect prey. We could think about these snakes as police dogs, who use the scent of the theif to track him or her.
I definitely see the parallel between the giants being only up to their navel in ice. This comparison is hard to support however. Another possible explanation of this half burial of the giants is that they add to the atmosphere.Since dante mistakes them for towers, it adds to the "sinister" mood of the lower circles of hell. Furthermore, the giants are not necessarily getting being tortured, but they represent the wild and crazy tendencies of the creatures other than humans.
I definitely see the parallel between the giants being only up to their navel in ice. This comparison is hard to support however. Another possible explanation of this half burial of the giants is that they add to the atmosphere.Since dante mistakes them for towers, it adds to the "sinister" mood of the lower circles of hell. Furthermore, the giants are not necessarily getting being tortured, but they represent the wild and crazy tendencies of the creatures other than humans.
I was reading the Canto's for CIrcle 8 and relized that there are no monsters guarding the 8th Circle. Is it becuase these people are tortured so much that they can't escape or do they not want to? I know that Geryon is the ride down to the 8th Circle but couldn't there be someway for these people to walk through the 9th Circle like Dante and Virgil are doing? Just wondering.
"Whereat i turned and saw beneath my feet and stretching out ahead, a lake so frozen it seemed to be made of glass." ( Canto XXXII, line 22-24)
I understand that Cocytus is the ice in which the compound Fraud sinners are punished, although i do think it is some what of an oxymoron, and kind of ironic that ice is the punishment for the "worst" sinners. However, What color is the ice? If the ice is white, wouldn't the color white be associated with Heaven? Does this reflect Lucifer as once being a heavenly angel?
On Mrs. Tully's website she has an interactive map of hell. I was looking at that and it had Lucifer hanging upside down however in the book on page 265 the picture has Lucifer above the ice. Is he above or hanging below the ice? If he is below then the ice wouldn't freeze by Lucifer flapping his wings and freezing the tears of the 9th Circle people. How do htey get their eyes frozen closed by tears then?
In the book it says "...i saw his head towering above me! for it had three faces..." (34.37-8). I'm pretty sure that means that Satan had the lower half of himself in the ice. because it goes on to say "under each head two wings rose terrible...and he beat them so that three winds blew from him in one great storm" (34.46-50). But maybe the interactive website is right because in line 89 it says "i saw instead his legs projecting high into the air."
Original - I read in circle 8 that some thieves are bitten by the snakes and then burst into flame. I know they suffer from transforming from their ashes back into their body, but what does this represent allegorically. I was also monder if the sinners who were coiled by the snakes become constricted, die, and come bake to life or if they are just held there imobile for all eternity.
understand that Cocytus is the ice in which the compound Fraud sinners are punished, although i do think it is some what of an oxymoron, and kind of ironic that ice is the punishment for the "worst" sinners. However, What color is the ice? If the ice is white, wouldn't the color white be associated with Heaven? Does this reflect Lucifer as once being a heavenly angel?
RE: Flash Hmm... Good Observation, that would be interesting if the ice was white. But I don't think, personally and I might be wrong, but I don't associate white as a heavenly color. I associate "light" as all heavenly, which gives everything a glare, or white sheen, also it would give it a gold sheen too. In the ninth circle of hell, I think it is far from heavenly light, or any "pure" light for that matter. So, I would think it is blue, that would give it a dark sense, signifying that it is a part of hell, and that it is cold. For example, the deepest parts of the ocean ( lower hell) , are the darkest parts ( "blue ice). I hope my opinion gives a visual.
RE: Aphridite 3/12/08 7:32 What i got from the snakes is that they were there to make the thieves torture worse. So the snakes are holding their hands, which while they were alive were their agents of crime. I don't believe that this kills them. The suffering of coming back to life is told in the intro to Canto 24. "And as the thief destroys his fellowman by making their substance diappear, so is he painfully destroyed and made to disappear, no once but over and over again." So they made people lose some of their identity so they lose their identity.
so sorry, I command copy peoples comments and put them on my blog so I don't have to scroll on the page back and forth, I just forgot to delete that one and I don't know how to get rid of that comment. Sorry again
In response to michelangelo: There are a few reasons why it is unnecessary to have a monster guarding Cirlce 8. First, all throughout this circle there are demons torturing and watching over the sinners, guarding each idividual bolgia. Second, the sinners are trapped in there specific areas of the circle, so there is no chance of escape. The final reason is that the sinners probably have no desire to even try and escape since they are so wound up in there torture. Although there are probably many other reasons why there is no guard for Circle 8, these three seemed to be the most obvious to me. Hope this helped!!
Dante describes the ice as resembling glass. My best guess is that the ice was close to clear. Also, Dante could see the distorted figures of the Judecca through the ice. This aside, in the Inferno, Dante hardly uses color for symbolic importance. (I can't even think of one example but there may be one.) His emphasis has been on symbolic actions.
To Junie B. Jones: I would assume that their transformations are not permenant since if they couldn't change back, they wouldn't experience the painful transformation over and over and over again.
Sorry for responding to a post so far back but I didn't notice the other pages...
Original - I read in circle 8 that some thieves are bitten by the snakes and then burst into flame. I know they suffer from transforming from their ashes back into their body, but what does this represent allegorically. I was also monder if the sinners who were coiled by the snakes become constricted, die, and come bake to life or if they are just held there imobile for all eternity.
In response to Aphrodite, well allegorically the snakes represent the reptillian nature of thievery's deception. The fact that the thieves burst into flames from the bite is explained in the prelude to Canto XXIV, "As the thief destroys his fellowman by making his substance disappear, so is he painfully destroyed and made to disappear." The fact that they are reformed is merely so that they may experience the pain over and over again.
To add on to what Luna Lovegood said in response to Flash,
I think you are right about color not being of much importance, and action being what is truly emphasized. I think that what Dante was symbolizing by stating that the ice was like glass was that while in life their intentions were fogged with treachery, now they are frozen in such clear ice for all to see.
I'm not sure whether the 5 noble thieves can change back,but most thieves will usually be reborn after they are burnt to ashes,well,they aren't reborn as humans, but as some form of monster since other thieves in bolgia 7 steal their bodies as part of the symbolic retribution
To add to HelenofTroy's response,The reason that Dante and Virgil are able to just walk around hell is that Virgil is Human Reason and was able to surpass Minos and all the other monsters in Hell who try to stop them. Minos is the one who is able to assign everyone's eternal torment in Hell, so once they passed him they were able to roam freely. No one else has Human Reason guiding them, that is the main reason only Dante and Virgil are able to move about freely.
Also, does anyone know if Dante can be harmed inside hell? because it seems to me that every time he reaches an area where a demon can impale him with a spear, virgil tells him to take cover, so I was wondering if Dante can be harmed in hell
{Original} In Circle 8 i understand its supposed to be the sinner of fraud and malice. I definitely understand where the fraud is because every member of this circle committed some kind of fraud. but i don't understand where the sinners of malice are. no one really physically inflicted pain on others. Some may have caused others hard ship and tough livings but they never really hurt any one directly. So why would the sins of malice even be brought up if the sinners of malice are never written about?
re: frederic chopin Dante can most likely be harmed in hell because he is still human, so he can still die a mortal death. Virgil hides him from all of the monsters so he can't get hurt, which would probably mean that he can die. hope that helps..
re: thing 2 Malice is not directly harming another person, it is just ill will or the intention to do evil, so it makes sense that the fraudulent are in fact the sinners of malice as well. When they are deceitful they they are intending to do evil to another person.
To flash: I dont think the white ice has anything to do with Lucifer's old allegiances. I actually think that the ice forms from the all of the tears the sinners shed in hell, and then Lucifer waves his wings and creates cold air that freezes them into ice.
To speaker of the dead: 1. We have to work on our project this weekend. 2. I also find myself with a bit of pity towards the sinners. This may sounds a little blasphemic but i think God is overreacting a little. These punishments really seem over the top and I really think after having a couple of limbs chopped off in hell you would learn your lesson.
OHHHH! OK, I think I get it. I take back what I said the ice being blue. Clearly, because they are tears the ice will be clear or like glass. That makes sense, although it is still ice and sometimes ice is blue in dark areas. But clearly that is not in Dantes case. Ok, thank you for clearing that up for Flash and I. I also came up with the observation that it was blue from a developing game in one of our classes. They have red flames and what look like blue flames, but clearly it is not fire but ice.
you're saying that each and every sinner guilty of fraud is also guilty of malice, which you're describing as intending to do evil upon another. (not meaning to use "a what" if query but..) what if someone is forging a signature on a check? isn't that person not attempting to harm or to "do evil upon," but solely trying to have a self-gain? That person is trying to get money for themselves. Though it seems just a matter of category, but isn't it having more as opposed to the other having less?
To peter pan: I think even if you forge a signature, you can still cause malice. For instance, if you forge someones signature on a check, you can take money from their checking account.
To Peter Pan: Don't forget that whoever is forging the signature is hurting the person whose signature they are forging by stealing money from them. It may not be a violent form of malice, but it is malice nevertheless.
Yes, that is exactly what I thought, I stated that earlier in the blog. Clearly, it is not like prison, it is just plain torture. Every day after I read this, I am so fearful, and I literally count every sin I am doing during the day. Ha! (Gulp). It makes me feel like I have to become Catholic to repent my sins. But I think that was the goal of the church at the time. They have hell, which Dante provides gruesome punishments for what I call, "Lame" sins, and the church will use that to get people to become fearful, and I stress FEARFUL, of hell. So people will end up joining the church and go in to confession. Maybe not, but I think that Dante's tale could be a euphemism of hell, if I know the definition of euphemism. Im not sure. But the church has changed so much in the past. For example, I think it was Pope John Paul who accepted a theory of Galileo's. So, wouldn't that change hell? That is why I feel there is a non-existent hell. It is just like the media, everything they say, well almost everything they say is to put us in fear. Which will make us do what they tell us. Just like Dante's Inferno.
the panderers and seducers are i think technically in the same bolgia. I think its just that the panderers are near the outter wall and the seducers are near the inner wall. Considering the context of the panderers and suducers it seems appropriate that the panderers a.k.a. "pimps" though completely guilty of fraud and everthing, not being the actual umm... "blue collar" and being the "white collar" businessman to be on the outter, about 1/2 a degree better than the suducers, the "workforce" and "worker" in direct contact with the "claimsman" (sorry for bad wording)
(To:Junie B. Jones at: March 10, 2008 10:56 PM) The thieves in circle eight are punished not just by snake bites and ash-ascension. The changing forms are also part of their punishment, which can be seen n lines 64-66, "The other two cried out as they looked on:/"Alas! Alas! Angello, how you change!/ Already you are neither two nor one!"". This is another example of divine retribution, as the thieves took others material things, transforming the stolen items into their own property. The snakes represent the act of thieving itself, for the art is reptilian in style. (reptilian meaning sneaky and silent)
To speaker of the dead: 1. Cool 2. I did 3. Ive gotten the feeling that Dante wrote the Infernoo just put his political enemies and rivals in pain and suffering just for the hell of it. (haha, get it? just for the hell of it...)
i would just like to congratulate spaceman spiff, xan, speaker for the dead, and myself; for this record of 4 posts in the last 3 minutes before 9 (even though right now it says 10) on wednesday night
(re: Peter pan March 12, 2008 9:51 PM) Your question of sin is a good one. However, the lower hell (sins of leopard) are sins of fraud. Forging a check is obviously fraud, but Dante takes it an extra step because banking was a major part of life in Florence. (thats where he was born, right?)
In cicle 8 bolgia 6 the hypocrites on page 199 lines 49-51 " when on the height we had just left, the fiends beat their great wings. but now they gave my guide no cause for fright. These lines to me , gives me the thought that even the fiends as strong and terrible as they are, because they are in hell they are also restricted from other places. So in a way everyone in hell is punished in a way. Any opinions?
TO thing 2, I would think that circle 8 contains malice because when fraud is done to a person it can damgage the individual mentally but not physically. So in that case it can cause people to commit suicide, murder others or other insane acts of violence. So because malice comes after fraud they can be put together i would think thats why.
The Seducers and Panderers are also considered sinning for the planning/and doing of pre-marital sex (that's a sin)
This is REALLLLYYY random but my catechism teacher said that playing pokemon is kinda like a sin...is it the 'Mild Cartoon Violence' in it that can be considered sinful?? someone please give me some insight.
Totally Random, but I find it interesting that in canto XXI, the leader of the demons, Malacoda, tells the other demons to lay off of Virgil and Dante and escort them to the next Bolgia. The interesting thing is is that the Prefix of his name is "Mala" which in Spanish and I think Italian, but definately spanish means "Bad". Yet Malacoda almost looks like he looks out for Virgil and Dante, would this be ironic? Spaceman spiff, I know you can help me with this one.
RE: Speaker of the Dead I'm no spaceman, but according to my trusty side-kick dictionary.com the root word of coda is: coda
1753, from L. cauda "a tail."
...so could his name mean 'bad-tail'. That would make sense since all of the other demons have weird names like that one. So in my opinion, I do not think it's ironic.
Junie B. Jones- I am not completely positive, but I do not think that the transformation is permanent because then the reptiles would have to remain within the sinner forever. The reptiles also have the job of hitting the sinners and making the part they hit disenegrate. The sinners then go throungh the painful process of growing that part back.
I find it interesting that souls are punished forever for mistakes made in a 70 year period. Does Dante believe that all souls are initially good but through society we turn bad? There is the whole issue of free will, so are the souls in hell those who misused their free will? I get that repenting mistakes gets you into heaven, but where does the moral line fall? And what's up with Original Sin? It has to do with Adam and Eve, but what does that mean for the rest of us? The whole "being punished forever" thing for mistakes you may have made doesn't seem right. But there is the whole "I'm looking at this from a modern perspective and not from Dante's time" which I mentioned in an earlier blog. This whole theology behind mistakes, errors and sin is confusing. Didn't the new testimant have stuff like forgiveness and "love thy neighbor"? These laws are great for people, but when God punishes people eternally for a sin that they committed, that means that God doesn't follow the same rules that Jesus taught in the bible. Doesn't that sound a little contradictory?
Scratch my last comment, like Mrs. Tully said in class today: since Lucifer is in the center of the Earth (according to Dante), from one side, you'd see his head, and from the other his legs.
In response to Adam: I think that much of Christian dogma at Dante's time was contradictory and I think much of Christian dogma remains contradictory. About the rules that Jesus preached in the bible; there is both the old testament and the new testament. In the old testament, Jesus and many of the biblical figures were far more eye for an eye than turn the other cheek. The thing about theology (in my opinion) is that it is simply an extension of the human psyche. Just as human consciousness and thought processes evolve, theology evolves because theology isn't external information that comes to people and is recorded, it comes from inside people. A group of people wrote the bible just as Dante set pen to paper and created a series of circles of hell. This is turning into a ramble, so forgive me. The point is: Dante's work (like any religious masterpiece) fills the human need for faith in something and rules to follow. Humanity seems so desperate for these things, that we lose our value of truth and logic in the process. This human pattern was present in Dante's time and it certainly is alive and well now. hmmm...do you understand what I'm saying? Did that make any sense?
yeah, actually it did. thanks. But I get the feeling that this is actually a story thats meant to be a great literary text, instead of a theological record. Now that I look back on all of the Cantos, this seems to make more sense.
I believe the transformations are not permanent because the punishment of thieves is to never be able to own something, because they stole from others in life. Maybe it's more painful for the 5 Noble thieves, because they were noble and probably didn't need to steal. That is if "noble" is in the sense of the wealthy and upperclass, and not the "noble", like that was a noble cause...
What are your theories about why Bertrand de Born holds his head at an arm's length away? Was there an underlaying significance when it said "it raised the head at arm's length toward our bridge / the better to be heard..." (28.128-29)?
Carmen 8:20 PM 3/15/08 Response to junie b. jones, 3/15/08 8:45 PM
The sowers of discord reside in bolgia nine in circle eight. Within this group, there are three classes: religious discord, political discord, and discord between kinsmen. Bertrand De Born resides with the sowers of discord between kinsmen. His appearance has to do with symbolic retribution. Bertrand’s sin was that he advised a young king to rebel against his father. So, he separated father from son. For this reason, his head is separated from his body. I hope this helps.
Does anybody know the basic story that's alluded to in Canto 30 of how Potiphar's wife was a false witness? All it says in the explanation is that she bore false witness against Joseph. Which Joseph is this?
I find it kind of strange that although Myrrha’s sin was one of lust, which should put her in the Second Circle of Hell, she is located in the Eighth Circle of Hell. This is because she kept her true identity secret in following lust, therefore performing a sin of fraud. Dante’s patterns of punishment tend to punish people by the greatest sin they performed. However for Dido this is not true. Dido committed suicide because of love but was put with the Lustful rather than with the Suicides. So, this could imply that sinners are punished according to what their story most symbolizes. Any ideas?
Upon further reading of The Inferno I realized that Bertrand de Born is treated differently than Mohamet. Mohamet is described as having "Between his legs all of his red guts hung with the heart, the lungs, the liver, the gall bladder, and the shriveled sac that passes shit to the bung" (XXVIII, 25-27). As one can see, this is pretty gory and disgusting. On the other hand, Bertrand is described as holding his "...severed head by its own hair, swinging it like a lantern in his hand" (XXVIII, 121-122). I found this interesting, especially since Bertrand is punished just a gruesomely as Mohamet. This obviously represents Dante's extreme views of Islam.
Bernard de Born appears in CantoXXVIII. He appears to Dante as "a body without a head, that moved along like all the others in that spew and spill." (119-120) I know that Bertrand was the one who cut the schism between Henry and Henry II, but how does that impact him on a spiritual level?
Ok so im doing my essay on theft..(ditch 7 of circle 8)..and i was wondering.. other than the fact that Vanni Fucci is a bad guy and all, why does Dante act as if he knew him personally..and why does Fucci feel emberrassed when he sees him?
To Junie B. Jones: The five noble thieves change conntinuesly, just as the other thieves, sometimes as creatures, mostly snakes and rarely themselfs.
Also..who are Agnello and Cianfa??? And what ditch do they have to do with in Circle 8???
TO cassius, The sinner who is nailed to the ground is Caiaphas the chief sinner of the hypocrites.He was the one who counseled people to crucify Jesus and so in return in hell he is also crucified and will suffer the worlds hypocrisy as Jesus suffered the sin of all in the world. He is also being stepped on by people who walk by.
I still don't fully understand this fourfold analyses but i'll take a stab at this.
I beleive that on a spiritual level, Bernard de Born, by breaking up fahter and son, might've broken their love, which is god. I'm not positive if this is right but hopefully because i'm doomed if its not haha.
Actually you know what, do you think anyone could help me understand this whole fourfold analyses its all so confusing for me and it hurts my brain haha
In response to Kakashi's response to Cassius, The weight of the world's hypocrisy is the people walking over him, as they are the hypocrites of the world.
You said it was Dante's view of Islam that caused him to describe Mohamet in gorier detail. Maybe, but Dante actually has a conversation with Bertrand and so his sufferage is made more apparent. Unlike Mohamet who is only seen.
You know what fascinates me? The Hypocrites, and how one person Caiphus was made to bear the weight of all the world's hypocrisy...
I wonder. If someone worse than him comes along, would that person be crucified in place of him, be crucified aong with him, or not be crucified at all?
“I had a good grip on his hair; already / I had yanked out more than one fistful of it...” (Canto XXXII, lines 103-104)
“Now filthy traitor, say no more!” (Canto XXXII, line 109)
Dante’s loyalty to his political party, the Guelphs, can be evidently seen in circle nine. Circle nine is divided into four rounds. Dante’s savagery towards Bocca Degli Abbati can be seen in the second round, those who did treacherous to country. He is violent with this sinner especially because Bocca betrayed the Guelphs. We can also see the gradual change in Dante’s heart. Earlier, he pitied some sinners. Now, we can see Dante’s decreasing ability to pity the punishments of the sinners. Also, his loyalty can be discerned whenever he comments on Pope Boniface VIII, whom he detests.
"And this gross Fiend and Image of all Evil who made a stairway for us with his hide is pinched and prisoned in the ice-pack still."
Dante is talking about Satan, the very anti-climatic ruler of Hell. Satan is trapped in ice upside down, very un-befiting of a ruler. Satan is usually percived as a heartless monarch of sinners surrounded by flame, but ice is shown here to represent the lack of love.
Dante's conversation with Bertrand gives the reader an understanding of why he is there. Mohamed(not mohamet) was only described from a far away view, as if there was no explanation was needed. In a way, he insults Mohamed by doing this and gives the reader a biased point of view towards Islam.
What was the symbolism, that was mentioned in the prelude to the final Canto, of climbing through the hair of Satan's legs to reach the tunnel that leads to Purgatory?
The symbolic retribution of Dante and Virgil climbing down satan's legs is that satan even though you would think he would be a monstrous beast and the worst thing in hell, he turns out be feeble and weak, encased within the icy central of Cocytus. Ableling dante and Virgil to just scurry down his body, with him unaable to shake them off even. If he had the power we all would predict he would have, then they wouldn't have been able to do such a feat. This shows the weakness of Satan and perphaps the power of God over those who spite him.
I think that Dante portrayed Mohamet as gory, because he was Christian, and the entire trilogy cetners of christianity and the punishments if you go against God. And even though they are basically the same thing and share the same God, Dante perhaps sees this as a sin for I believe that it was looked upon as Christinaity was above every other religion and therefore portrays mohamet as lower and sinful.
Also to add to that, I think Dante put the Pagans (people who aren't christianity) near the top of hell, due to them not knowing Christianity and I guess never knowing/unable to find the light of God..? But as a whole the book is saturated with chrisitanity and as the main idea of the book: Heaven or Hell, You know?
How can Archbishop Ruggieri's actions be interpretted on a moral level? And does anyone else find it curious that Ugolino is placed in Antenora even though the focus of his story seems to be on Ruggieri's betrayal and Ugolino's possible cannibalism? Why was treachery to country worse than treachery to family?
After reading the inferno, when they go to meet satan at the center not much really happens. It talks about who hes eating/punishing, but it never really tells what he looks like and his origins or what not. Anyone know more on Dis, or maybe i just missed some good stuff when reading? thanks.
To adam (again) About the father/son break up thing: In terms of the spiritual level, I think one of Dante's main assertions is that the role of humans is to create with and organize god's universe. By breaking up the sacred bond between father and son, Bertrand did the opposite of creating and allowing for sanctity. He desecrated something. hmmm. Just a thought that you might consider including in your essay.
To adam (again) About the father/son break up thing: In terms of the spiritual level, I think one of Dante's main assertions is that the role of humans is to create with and organize god's universe. By breaking up the sacred bond between father and son, Bertrand did the opposite of creating and allowing for sanctity. He desecrated something. hmmm. Just a thought that you might consider including in your essay. secrated
Satan is in Hell because he wanted to be as powerful as God. Since he wanted power and control, in Hell, he is frozen in ice and completely helpless. He has only the power to further punish himself. In his attempt to escape his fate, he merely freezes the ice more. I don't know much about Dante's Satan either. Does anyone know how he specifically differs from the Satan Christianity describes?
In Dante’s version of Ulysses, Ulysses’s quest for the “experience of the world beyond the sun” (Inf.26.109) is what eventually causes his death. This quest on the part of Ulysses could signify an attempt to escape the reality of his sins and his own conscience. Even the flames that cover him hide his identity as he too conceals his conscience. He abandons and persuades
In response to Junie B. Jones: The transformations of the Five Noble Thieves are ever changing. Meaning, they steal the human form of their comrades and that just goes back and forth. Symbolically, they wanted to steal the substance of their fellow countrymen so this is their punishment as well. Their souls will forever keep changing from human to reptile and back.
In response to Thing 1: I believe that Brutus does not talk because he accepts his punishment and the consequences for murdering Caesar along with the other conspirators. In the end of Julius Caesar, he stated that he was happier killing himself than murdering Caesar. To me, it seems like he acknowledges what he has done.
Sorry about my last post by the way.. it's a response to a much older post. My browser went wacko D:
In response to chihiro ogino (March 11, 2008 1:48 PM), in The Inferno, it says that Virgil had his spirit summoned by one farther down in Hell. This is how he was able to move around in Hell, but usually spirits can't move because they all committed a sin and are punished eternally for that sin. To be able to move would make the whole point of being punished completely pointless because everyone would move to the top, or the less harsh punishments.
Why did Dante make the end of The Inferno so anticlimactic? It seems to just kind of end with no real excitement. I know he has three other books, so is his last one more of an exciting ending?
The end of The Inferno is most likely anticlimactic because Dante wants to show how Satan isn't all-powerful as he is reputed to be. Dante portays him as being a weak and powerless figure: just another punished sinner in Hell. Dante probably believed that Satan doesn't deserve glorification.
For my essay, I'm interested in anyone else's opinions on Ugieri and Ruggieri. Our translator says, quite expressly, that Dante did not mean to convey that Ugieri was a cannibal. However, other translators and commentators, including ms. tully if I remember right, have said otherwise. Based on the implications of their symbolic retribution and the gist of the language --as the very nature of a translation renders exact language imprecise-- is Ugieri a cannibal? Or merely a traitor to his compatriots?
Does anyone have any examples other than Betrand de Born and Muhammed and my own Ruggieri for examples of mutilation of the body being used as an allegory for splitting up families or religions or states?
To young werther on your first question on if Ugolino is a cannibal:
Ugolino, according to Ciardi's summary at the beginning of the canto, is not a cannibal. according to Ciardi's summary, ugolino gnaws on ruggieri because ruggieri caused ugolinos starvation. hes saying since ruggieri caused the starvation, he will be ugolinos food for the rest of eternity. on many other accounts, ugolino is considered a cannibal because after his sons died, he ate them. if this is what dante intended then the symbolic retribution would be that since ugolino had no control and wanted to eat his sons for his hunger, he will get what he wants by eating ruggieri who caused him to be in that situation.
In response to: Young Werther (March 19, 2008 9:03 PM)(the times are still messed up by the way)
I think you have his name messed up "Ugolino" Ugolino is the guy chewing on Ruggieri's head. If that is who you were talking about, he was placed in the treachery against country because he was a guelph, and helped Ruggieri (a ghibelline) acquire castles in Pisa. and then Ruggieri turned on Ugolino and locked him in the tower of hunger with 4 kids and grandkids. When they died, Ugolino ate them. and that's why he is eternally eating the back of Ruggieri's head.
To young werther on your question on mutilation and factionalization:
Dante picked the characters he talked to very carefully. if you think very carefully, you can put a factionalization arguement to just about every character depending on their religious views, political views, etc. Farinata could be an example. even though he is in hell for being a heretic, denying christianity (splitting religion), he is also a ghibelline (splitting florence politically. idk if burning in a tomb fits your definition for mutilation of body but i think it should. these types of agruments can be made for many of the characters in this book.
Thought this might help a little to get a better picture.
To Zeus:
The ending of Inferno is anticlimactic, because if you were to read Paradiso, it ends with the climatic meeting with the three spheres of God. It sets a contrast of Satan and God.
(Original) "Bocca, what is it ails you? What the Hell's wrong? Isn't it enough to hear you bang your jaws? Must you bark too?" I find it quite interesting how these souls are able to have normal conversations... they are in Hell. Frankly, it doesn't seem like they are suffering that much. At least in the ninth circle. It's supposed to be that the farther down you go, the more suffering is inflicted upon you, but these souls trapped in the ice don't seem to be completely blinded by torture. In other circles, such as circle eight, the souls seem to be in more pain.
To cassius: Yes I completely agree with your statement. The souls of those who commited trachery against their kin or country, being frozen in ice should not be able to have rational conversations. Having these punishments is something that they should have to lament in their own mind for all eternity, not being able to vent their own sufferings to other people.
To Guido: I don't really understand it. Some, even those in the horders and wasters, were to blinded by emotion (or busy?) to have conversations with Dante. It shocks me that anyone really can have intellegent conversation, but espically those in the deepest circle! These, if anyone, should be suffering more. Wow, that sounds cruel, but methinks it strange (haha, Shakespeare) that these are so... seemingly unaffected by their punishments.
While readign through the Inferno I found it interesting that Dante doesn't mention any women besides Farinota(sorry if I spelled that wrong). Is this because Dante didn't put any women in hell or did he think that all women were angels or something? I mean there were probably some women in the world at that time that were doing something bad. Just found that interesting and weird.
That is exactly what I was thinking. Ice doesnt seem to be that painful unless you are in Judecca and completely submerged. The people in te first circle don't even have their eyes frozen shut with tears. It seems like Dante wasn't going from least punishemnt to worst, more like randomly putting groups in an order adn assinging them a punishment that fit their crime.
To Michaelangelo (5:00 P.M.): I do think Dante had more than two women (Francesca and Myrrha) in Hell. I suppose he doesn't think most of their stories important enough or as impacting on the audience as the famous and epic stories of sinful men.
In response to Michelangelo (March 20, 2008 5:00 PM) and Junie B. Jones (March 20, 2008 10:05 PM)
Be sure to remember that actions of women in Dante's time were not nearly as publicized as those of men. The Church's view of women were that they were evil. This is because it was Eve who caused Adam to sin. So Dante most likely didn't see women as angelic. The problem with women doing epic things at Dante's time was that it didn't exist. At his time, women did little more than run the household and bear children.
Because the seasons are changing and the beginning of spring is upon us, I just thought I'd ask this: Does everyone agree that Dante's hell is made up of a series of separate microclimes that aren't remotely attuned to the seasonal rythms of the earth? I think this separation from natural patterns in terms of weather, season and climate is probably a symbol of sinners being out of touch with god's creation (earth) and thusly, god.
My guess about the time difference is that the blog server is based in a different time zone than we are. There is also the fact that we don't do day lights savings time.
When Dante and Virgil area in circle 9, on the frozen lake, Cocytus, are the sinners all just to there head in the frozen water or are some of them not as deep in the ice. The summary before the Canto says, "and here, fixed in the ice, each according to his guilt..." (Canto XXXII). I understand that as they progress down to the different divisions, the sinners are lower in the ice, but are there little sub-divisions?
When Dante and Virgil area in circle 9, on the frozen lake, Cocytus, are the sinners all just to there head in the frozen water or are some of them not as deep in the ice. The summary before the Canto says, "and here, fixed in the ice, each according to his guilt..." (Canto XXXII). I understand that as they progress down to the different divisions, the sinners are lower in the ice, but are there little sub-divisions?
For my essay, I am focusing on the Simoniacs, but I am having a hard time with the whole thing, but more specifically with the Moral and Psychological part. All I have is that it makes people believe that they have repented but they really have not. I don’t really know how to expand on that. Also for the spiritual part I don’t really understand what the paper Mrs. Tully gave us says? Help!?
What is the point of Lucifer? It seems as though he is a figure that does nothing. He has no control over anything in hell. Is he just a sinner? If so, why is there all this build up? Dante goes further and further into hell getting more and more evil and grotesque. My attention was at it's peak when I got to Ugolino and Ruggieri. Then, it was just like "Oh well, I guess the book is over". I'm really wondering if there was something I missed about Lucifer. If not, then I think it was completely pointless for him to be in hell.
In response to mrincredible (3/24/08 1:19pm) I think the moral aspect of the simoniacs is that they are messing with someone's faith. It is unfair to manipulate someone because of what they believe in religiously. In this case, they are taking advantage of the trust that is placed in them. To sum it up, they are abusing their power. Then spiritually, I believe that they are cheating the person of their religion. This is different from why I said it was morally wrong because this is denying a person a proper oppurtunity to be religous. The simoniacs don't say "Hey you, you can't believe in God" but they don't allow a person to worship in the "correct" manner. Hope that helps.
Carmen 9:35 PM, March 24, 2008 Response to michelangelo, 3/20/08 5:00 PM
I agree with volsung. Most of the sinners Dante converses with have ended up in hell for political reasons or they held political offices: Farinata, Count Guido Da Montefeltro, Pier Da Medicina, Bocca Degli Abbati, Count Ugolino, etc. Also, I believe you confused Farinata with someone else. He’s a war chief of the Ghibellines. Anyways, Dante did mention Thais, Dido, Francesca, Cleopatra, Myrrha, and Potiphar’s wife. I guess these women were known for their sins, and therefore, they had to be placed in hell. Dante places more emphasis on the men because they held political offices and religious offices. Since women were believed to be inferior at Dante’s time, he didn’t really know any other sins committed by women.
The placement of Brutus and Cassius’s in the last circle of Hell seems disputable. They did murder Julius Caesar, but we never really find out whether or not the murder was for the “good of Rome.” But, Brutus and Cassius suffer a punishment slightly less harsh than Judas. Any ideas on this?
I noticed something very interesting about the physical appearence of satan. He is described as being a hidious and ungainly. Yet, if the story is true, he was once an angel. Aren't angels supposed to be lordly in look? How come satan doesn't look like the angels of heaven? Did he once, or was he transformed during his fall from heaven? Maybe Dante the Poet used that appearence for his book, not thinking of how he became that way. Any suggestions?
If Satan was in fact "lordly in look", he probably did transform once he was in Hell. I am sure that all of the sinners in Hell once looked much better in life than they do in Hell. So I am guessing that he did change because it would not be very threatening to se a beautiful angel in Hell. If I am incorrect, anyone please feel free to correct me.
First of all, I do not believe that there are many exceptions in Hell. Whether Brutus and Cassius thought that they were killing Caesar for the "good of Rome" or not, it was a murder nonetheless, which is a sin. Also, I do not think that stabbing Caesar was for the "good of Rome". Brutus just rationalized the fact that it was a murder so far that it became a good idea in the conspirators' minds.
I'm not really sure about the spiritual analysis on the hypocrites, but I think their main representation is greed, because they try to disguise themselves to the rest of the world, shown in retribution by the hoods over their eyes, but that is only a guess, I can't fully get the concept.
So while finishing the reading of Inferno I was kind of confused about Circle 9. Why did Dante name all fo Circle 9 Cocytus? Does it have some meaning. Also i understand why he named the 1st round Caina and the 4th round Judecca. What do the other two rounds names mean? At one website I was reading to make the game it said that Ptoleme(sorry if i spelled that wrong, i am having typing and spelling issues) was like a sea captain but the book says that he killed his father in law. Which one is correct(i would assume the book since we are readign it but just checking.
What kind of symbolism do the monk robes hold, like the ones worn by the "Benedictines at cluny" (Canto XXIII, line 59) and now worn by the hypocrites?
Mr Incredible (march 24, 1:08) So what I understood from everything that I have read is that some of the sinners have their heads above ice and then as Dante and Virgil move closer to Satan the people seem to sink lower into the ice. So kind of like sub-divisons as the heads depth into the ice sets each round apart but not defined like Circle 8. So i guess no there are not sub divisons. Hope this helps.
In response to Turtleheart (March 25, 2008 6:38 PM)
The symbolism in the Hypocrite's robes is their appearance. On the outside it looks golden and pure, a good thing. The inside is lead, which is heavy, and definitely a bad thing. In life, the Hypocrites passed as holy (gold) while underneath they had to carry around their guilt (lead). Both metals are heavy, so they are punished by essentially getting what they wanted. The robes are Cluny monk robes because the Benedictines at Cluny were "...especially ample and elegant." (Ciardi 203). In other words, the Cluniac monks abused their holy offices by being elegant, just like the sinners in Hell and their robes.
In Canto XXX, Dante seems intrigued by the arguments of Master Adam and Sinon the Greek. Normally, Dante is only interested in the sinners if it seems that he would be tempted by them. This case is somewhat different despite the fact that Virgil must urge him away. Dante doesn't seem to be tempted by the two Falsifiers as he did Francesca. He does not pity them. Would there be any other reason for him to show interest?
"so within the fosse/ only those flames, forever passing by/ were visible, ahead, to right, to left;/ for though each steals a sinner's soul from view/ not one among them leaves a trace of the theft." (Canto 26, lines 39-42) I understand that the Evil Counselors were those who gave advice that they knew would lead to something bad, abusing their influence. What I am a little unclear on is the symbolism behind their punishment. They are trapped behind veils of fire, but why is this significant?
Carmen 6:32 PM, March 25, 2008 Response to thetisthegoddess, 3/25/08 3:34 PM
Judas suffers more than Cassius and Brutus. Judas’ head is inside Satan’s mouth, while Cassius and Brutus have their feet inside Satan’s mouth. I do believe that Brutus and Cassius suffer more than they need to. Since Rome is a sovereign city, Caesar was a sovereign ruler. Dante probably believed that Caesar was the perfect symbol of secular government, just as Christ was the perfect symbol of religion. This shows Dante’s belief that the church and the state play important roles. According to Dante, Brutus and Cassius destroyed that ideal symbol of government.
HelenofTroy said... "so within the fosse/ only those flames, forever passing by/ were visible, ahead, to right, to left;/ for though each steals a sinner's soul from view/ not one among them leaves a trace of the theft." (Canto 26, lines 39-42) I understand that the Evil Counselors were those who gave advice that they knew would lead to something bad, abusing their influence. What I am a little unclear on is the symbolism behind their punishment. They are trapped behind veils of fire, but why is this significant?
March 25, 2008 7:24 PM Helen of troy(march 25, 7:24) I understand where you are getting confused from as I am still a little unclear. However the intro to the Evil Counselors is somewhat helpsul. Ciardo says "worked in hidden wys, so they are stolen from sight and hidden in the great flames which are their own guilty consciences." So I am thinking that this means that since they worked hidden from society that they are hidden forever from the eyes of other people. This being said I don't understand why Ulysses and Diomede are in the Evil Counselors.
I am so sorry about the answer above. I copied the question to answer and then never deleted it. Again sorry. The answer starts after the big space if anyone was wondering. One quesiton. If the Evil counselors abused god's gifts hidden from society then why are Diomede and Ulysses in this group?
I agree with what you said about the symbolic retiribution. But to add on to that, I think when Ciardi says "they stole from God" (Ciardi pg 220) he is talking about the misabuse of their gift. Since they didn't appreciate the gift of life and a mind the "stole" it. I don't exactly like how he used stole, it kind of through me off but it provides a connection to their symbolic retribution. Also, I definetly think Ulysess and Diomede fit right in with the evil counsellors. They were both Greeks and we know that Dante favored Troy. Remember Ulysees had the idea of the Trojan horse and think Diomede captured that Trojan spy and got information out of him. Their ideas were tricky and malicious to Dante and he probably wanted a reason to include Greeks in hell but thats just what I think. I hope I understood/answered your question!
In Response to thing 1 (ps I like your screen name) March 11, 2008 3:34 PM
Sorry this is kind of late. First, grafters basically cheat people. They may agree to perform a service and fall through. They also supplemented their income by taking bribes. Next, I think the spiritual level of the flatteres is that they can't be trusted. They fool people into thinking they are something better than what they truely are. But, you can fool god. He knows what you are truely feeling or thinking. God can clearly see if you are being honest or tricking someone. Ultimatley, there is no escape from him. This may also apply to a certain extent to some other sinners. However, in my opinion I don't think a flattery is that big of a deal. I mean it is being viewed as more evil than murder. I guess it's just a change in the times.
Throughout The Inferno, there were constant references to Pope Boniface and all the sins he committed. While I was reading, I realized that he could fit into almost any circle, considering each of his different sins. Why then did Dante place him only in the third Bolgia in circle eight with the simoniacs? It says in the notes on page 172 "[Pope Nicolas, the chief sinner] is awaiting the arrival of his successor, Boniface VIII, who will take his place in the stone tube..." I know Dante hated Boniface, and he had the freedom to place him in any part of Hell he wanted. Why did he not punish him more, lower in Hell?
Dante did put Pope Boniface 8th in the third bolgia because it is much more humiliating to the Pope politically to have Dante anticipate his fate in hell as abusing his church office. (XIX, 49-50) "are you there already, Boniface? Are you there already?" He goes on to talk about Boniface bleeding mary dry of gold and money. If you think about it, the text would be distributed to everyone and they would all know that the Pope is in Dante's hell. That doesn't look good for his reputation.
Well, that is a good point. Dante could have put him anywhere for any punishments, but it probably would not have mattered. For example, the sin committed relates to their retribution, so for every sinner their retribution is the worst they could get, so for Pope Boniface, any of the punishments would have done well for him considering all his sins. Technically, every sin's retribution for the sins's he made would have had the same effect on him as the rest of the sins. So any other retribution would not have been worse for him. If that makes any sense, even I am getting confused.
I actually was typing my comment while adam replied, I like his response better than mine, it actually makes much more sense to me. Yes, I could see that now how it would humiliate Pope Boniface since he is in Dante's hell.
In Dante's inferno, the devil is not actually the center of attention. True, he is the "center" of hell, but he is described in a slightly comical sense, (XXXIV, 73-75) "and seized the shaggy coat of the king demon; then grappling matted hair and frozen crusts from one tuft to another, clambered down." The description of an all-powerful demon lord falls apart as Dante and Virgil climb down Satan's leg hair and get to purgatory.
I agree with you guys. Michaelangelo, I feel like Ulysees and Diomede belong in with the evil Councelors because they abused god's hidden or secret gift. It is almost like a special talent God gave to them. For example, Ulysses had a great knowledge of everything from one side of the world to the next. He was also clever. So, he gathered his brilliant information that he knew and became very deceitful by building the Trojan Horse. Which then caused many deaths of children, men and women of Troy. Considering Dante liked Troy, Ulysses really pissed him off. Ulysses used his gift of brilliance given to him by God to bring upon a massacre.
To adam: I agree. I think the fact that Dante makes the devil seem so comical is to give him a lowly appearance compared to God. Hes showing how God is much more mighty and powerful than Satan, and he uses that funny appearance to demonstrate that.
Why are there so many punishments for the Falsifiers, I mean, My buddies and I were playing a board game today and the same question kept popping up. Name the punishments for the falsifiers. Also, What were the falsifiers sins. I heard, but still am confused, that the sins for the falsifiers were harsh, so how would the symbolic retributions, whatever they are, relate to the sins.
To speaker of the dead: Wasn't Ulysses actually in hell for that story Dante made up? Dante told the story that after returning to Ithica, he convinced a group of men to be his crew on a trip, and thn took them to their demise at Mt. Purgatory.
To zeus: I believe Boniface was placed in the simoniacs because that was the sin he was most well known for. Everyone knew Boniface often sold church offices to his friends and sold indulgences, so people reading Dante's book would believe his justification for putting him in hell.
To Carmen: I agree, but i think Judas suffers more simply because that was as bad a sin as they get. Betraying the son of god is definately worse than betraying a Roman leader.
To Spiff: As far as I know, pitch is a resin from coniferous trees (8th grade CAN be helpful, it seems), but basically it's a dark, sticky, thick, and smelly substance, like tar. Pretty much, it is tar, except I think pitch is made from tar. It's also waterproof, in case you care...
Also to Spiff, a couple comments back: I don't think that Satan was meant to be comical, so much as he was meant to be portrayed as the opposite of what he was in heaven. As you may know, he was beautiful then and, when he fell, he was made hideous. I think that's what the haunch hair was meant to be... punishment, rather than included for comedy.
“is Judas Iscariot, he who kicks his legs / on the fiery chin and has his head inside.” (Canto XXXIV, lines 62-63)
I noticed the similarity of the punishment between the Simoniacs and Judas. The Simoniacs reside in the holes of Bolgia 3. Their legs stick out of the ground and are in fire. Also, Judas has his legs sticking out and his head in Satan’s mouth. I know that Judas committed the most treacherous sin, but why is his head particularly, instead of his arms or something, in Satan’s mouth? Maybe, Judas committed a sin similar to the Simoniacs, but I’m not sure.
in Response to the questioning appearance of Satan:
I think Satan's purpose is not so much to have him opposing God in all aspects, but i think the idea is that he is a sinner also. He experiences punishment for his sin and his denial of God's love. So possibly Dante's lackluster description is a reflection of his thoughts and underwhelming interest in Satan. Dante's idea was to evaluate his soul which he thought was lost at the beginning of The Inferno , so this description of Satan could show his increasing believe and tendency toward God and want to God's guidance.
i know this question has already been answered but i think that the reason the sinners of the eighth and ninth circles, or even earlier can talk is for Dante to express his views about the lower sins. Dante uses people, their conversations, and setting to dis[lay his emotions and thoughts about Hell. If the sinners didn't talk it would be nearly impossible to get a really good feel for Dante's growth as a character etc. So i don't think it's so much that they don't suffer, but Dante is using them as a means to communicate by.
In Response to turtleheart(March 25, 2008 6:29 PM) The souls of Bolgia 6 are trudging along in a circle, clothed in capes lined with lead making them very heavy. However, on the outside the capes are beautiful and covered with gold. This is because the Hypocrites outward appearance shined brightly and seemed holy but underneath all of that they are dishonest and must bare the weight through all of eternity.
In response to Carmen (March 25, 2008 10:45 PM), I think Judas's head was in Satan's mouth because the head is the place of all thought and reason. Judas committed his crimes because of corrupted reason, conscience, and will, all of which are located in the head. It's just another example of symbolic retribution.
(Original) "And this gross Fiend and Image of all Evil who made a stairway for us with his hide is pinched and prisoned in the ice-pack still" (XXXIV.121-23). I just thought that this was an awesome sentence. It means a lot, explaining how Satan was great and terrible, how he will be imprisoned for all eternity. It tells how Satan is the final step in the long journey, and how he suffers, and it has a certain air about it, an air of timelessness, emptiness. It's thought provoking.
In the last Bolgia of Circle 8, there are the falsifiers. I think that I understand what the Alchemists, Evil Impersonators, and the Counterfeiters punishment is, but what about the False Witnesses? Are they just immobile and diseased? Also, I don’t really understand how there punishment is relevant to their sin of corrupting society by falsifications.
I know that there are differernt kinds of Sowers of Discord, for example religious and kinsmen sowers. My question is are they all puished the same way, by the demons hacking at them with swords, or is there some sort of special treatment. Same goes with the falsifiers, I understand that the evil impersonators have a different punishment from the alchemists, is this correct?
Why is Satan only to his waist in ice? He is a sinner, who is Treacherous to their masters, so shouldn't he technically be completely incased in the ice? I guess that would make the whole effect of him having the 3 men, Judas, Brutus, and Cassius, in his 3 mouths, but then couldn’t he be incased to his neck or something. And then when they are climbing down Satan’s back, why is that symbolic to anything?
446 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 446 Newer› Newest»"And when I looked down from their faces, I saw that each of them was hideously distorted between the top of the chest and the lines of the jaw;" (Canto XX lines 10-12)
Uh... Well, It's the fortune tellers. They're in hell because they were pretty much lying about having the ability to tell the future. God is the only one who can predict future events...
Ive posted this comment already but i still need a answer
Does anyone know about the history of Virgil in Hell? Dante says numerous times that he has been to places in Hell that are not only limbo, he would be in Limbo, but he's been to other parts of Hell... Is Virgil special or can people in Hell go anywhere anytime, because he's been to other parts of Hell before he was Dantes guide.
Question about the 9th circle of Hell its made of the 3 rivers in Hell and tears right? So is it made out of Blood, Swamp Water, Tears and lava? since thats what the 3 rivers in Hell are made of (the tears from the people in circle 9). Are they made of these 3? this isnt much of a question just my thoughts right now, (frozen lava?).
Throughout Inferno, Dante the poet constantly clarifies the geography of his Hell when Virgil gives lectures to Dante the pilgrim. For example in Canto XIV Virgil explains The Old Man of Crete, which is the statue from which the four rivers of Hell came from. The crumbling statue represents the decline of mankind. Virgil explains it as being composed of gold, silver, brass, iron and terra cotta. Dante the poet tends to leave some of the geography of hell unclear probably to inspire you to imagine and to add the sense of mystery to his poem.
I am having a trouble understanding what the grafters did while they were alive. and also (on the fourfold method worksheet) with the spirtual level of the flatterers.
I was reading Circle 8 Bolgia 10 in Canto XXIX and was unsure of what exactly the punishment of the Falsifiers was. The introduction says, “They are punished by afflictions o f every sense: by darkness, stench, thirst, filth, loathsome diseases, and shrieking din. Some of them, moreover, run ravening through the pit, tearing others to pieces.” I understand the part about them tearing each other to pieces but what does the rest mean. Would it be that they are tortured with thirst and diseases?
In response to Chihiro Ogino(11/3/08 12:51). The 9th Circle is made of the three rivers of hell which come from the tears of the Old Man of Crete. I would guess since the circle is frozen that the blood river is cooled by the time it reaches the botton. I know that the wings of Satan freeze the water when he flaps. So the river would be made out of the tears of the Old Man of Crete which are the 3 rivers of Hell.
I was reading Circle 8 Bolgia 9 about the Soweres of Discord and it said, "Behind us, warden of our mangled horde, the devil who butchers us and sends us marching waits to renew our wounds with his long sword when we have made the circuit of the pit; for by the time we stand again before him all the wounds he gave us last have knit. XXVIII.36"
So acccording to this they walk around but in the picture in class it looked like they were sitting. Does anyone know what they are actually doing?
to michaelangelo:
I think that they do go around and around, yet are unable to continue to go around because they are chopped up by the demon so many times, their severed bodies don't contain the strength to actually walk fully. Therefore, I believe that the picture in class shows that they are "sitting," but actually in truth are probably crawling slowly around and around back to the demon as they heal, to only get mutilated again.
This is not really a response to Sherlock 10/3/08 7:44 PM (I think it is actually 3/10/08) but it is more of an agreement. But as a response, I think that the Panderers are the same as the seducers, but they just don’t do it in a sexual way. It is more like they are convincing people to do something for them. Like Sherlock, I don’t really know what to fill out for the other things. It seems like I am righting the same thing for each topic. I understand the rest of the groups…I think, it is just the Panderers and Seducers. Help?
to thing 1:
It says in the summary
(paragraph 2):
"..the sticky pitch...it serves also to hide them from sight, as there sinful dealings were hidden from mens eyes."
This means that because they stole from others through trickery (I believe)and slyly tricked people without them knowing, they were blinded by the waste around them....
sorry its in XXI
Sherlock and Mr Incredible 11/3/08:
I think that the panderers sell people they know and seducers actually seduce people for their own benefit. For example Venedico Caccianemico is a a panderer because he procured his sister to win the favor of the Marquis, and Jason of the Argonauts is a seducer because he himself seduced Medea and Hypsiple. (cantos xviii)
It seems like whenever Dante sees some terrible sight, he cries and can't look away or move on. I understand that it is a terrible sight to see all of these tormented shades everywhere, but they are in Hell, so they should deserve to be there with their punishment. Just as one example, in Canto XXVIII he sees the shades hacked and torn, so he weeps. It just seems odd to me, especially because he has been seeing terrible things the whole journey.
Also, why does Virgil always try to get him away? Every time Dante begins to feel pity, Virgil tells him to stop. Is this just because he does not want Dante to feel bad for people who did dreadful things? Or is there some secret reason, like if he feels pity then the guards and the shades will see his true feelings, which would be bad.
It seems like whenever Dante sees some terrible sight, he cries and can't look away or move on. I understand that it is a terrible sight to see all of these tormented shades everywhere, but they are in Hell, so they should deserve to be there with their punishment. Just as one example, in Canto XXVIII he sees the shades hacked and torn, so he weeps. It just seems odd to me, especially because he has been seeing terrible things the whole journey.
Also, why does Virgil always try to get him away? Every time Dante begins to feel pity, Virgil tells him to stop. Is this just because he does not want Dante to feel bad for people who did dreadful things? Or is there some secret reason, like if he feels pity then the guards and the shades will see his true feelings, which would be bad.
After reading canto XXXI, about the giants, i am unclear as to why they are placed between the circles of Fraud. The giants insulted Gods as their main offence, so wouldn't that make them heretics? Also they seem as creatures to fit better allegoriclly in the circles of the Lion. Also, some of them are in the Malbolge only because of their natures as giants, and from no particular sin.
{ORIGINAL}
I found it interesting how there are many opportunities to commit a sin, but he obviously hasnt. These opportunities include lust in beatrice. [2.52-2.58] and the sins of the evil councilors.[cantos XXVII] and many more.
I've also found the same pattern in Willy Wonka & the Chocolate facotry. There are 5 kids but only 4 traps to narrow it down. Willy Wonka never set a room to eliminate Charlie. This makes Charlie seem the most inncent, but in reality he only got a chance to show his flaws at the begining when he was going to sell his golden ticket for money.
Dante the poet didnt set a trap for Dante the farmer, only stated the opportunities.
To mr incredible:
I think Dante was, in the case of the the sowers of discord, moved to tears simply because this seemed like a particularly cruel punishment. And i think he does understand that these people are in hell for a reason, but if you ask me these punishments do at times seem cruel and maybe uncalled for.
To iko_iko:
I agree. We actually discussed this in class today on how most of the sins you see people punished in hell for are sins Dante was tempted by in his own life.
To thing 1:
Grafters were people that took bribes or stole money from there employers, such as accountants that steal from their employers accounts.
Thank you to both adam and takasihi for your comments. I got it now.
In response to sherlock, I believe that the panderers are the people who set situations up but don't act in them and they are refered to as "pimp" in the Inferno a few times. An example is in Canto V when Francesca says, "That book, and he who wrote it, was a pander" saying the book caused it.
Honestly, I'm having a lot of trouble with the fourfold analysis as well so I don't think I would be of much help to you. So if someone could help me with that too i would appreciate it.
In response to junie b. jones (10/3/08 9:56 PM), yes the Five Noble Thieves can change back and forth. The symbolic retribution is that in life they sole things to make a living and formed their whole being around stealing, now in death, the only way they can possess a body is by stealing it from others. In canto twenty five, page 213, it says "In life they took the substance of others, transforming their own. So in Hell their very bodies are constantly being taken from them, and they are left to steal back a human form from some other sinner."
"Among the thieves I found five who had been your citizens, to my shame,..." (XXVI.4-5)
Most of the historical characters Dante runs into in hell are Florentines. I'm sure this is because this was where Alighieri had been limited to until up to his exile. In this particular passage, Dante remarks his shame in so many Florentines populating hell. And this leads me to wonder if this was his true attitude towards his fellow citizens before 1300. Did he feel that Florence was corrupt and unsafe even before his exile? He obviously respects his hometown by praising the intellect of even the damned. Florentines recognize the Pilgrim by his fine speech. So what was the Poet's attitude outside of his comedy?
{ORIGINAL}
I found it strange that, as the deeper in Hell Dante goes, the more he offers fame for the sinners. In the earlier Cantos, alot of the sinners were reluctant to reveal their name, as in the case of the unknown Florentine suicide. Upon questioning, the sould simply speaks in riddles. However, in the deeper Bolgias, Dante is confronted with people that want to be known. Dante begins to offer fame in exchange for names. In my reading, I did not come across andy sinner that completely refused to let any personal information out, with exception of Bocca Degli Abbati. Does anybody have a possible reason why this is?
"Between his legs all his red guts hung with the heart, the lungs, the liver, the gall bladder, and the shriveled sac that passes shit to the bung" (Canto XXVIII, lines 25-28).
In my opinion, this is definitely the most disgusting scene in the book so far. I didn't understand why people would think the grafters were so horrible, but this one was pretty bad. Also, I agree with bilbo baggins. I'm really confused with the four fold analysis. Can anyone help us?
Carmen 7:34 PM 3/11/08 Response to junie b. jones, 3/10/08 9:56 PM
The transformations of the five noble thieves are for Dante’s purposes to show the symbolic retribution of the thieves. Dante expresses the grotesque punishment for these thieves. Since they stole something from someone in their life time, they will steal one another’s forms and also will have their own forms stolen in hell. The five noble thieves exchange forms with each other. In the end of the canto, Dante mentions about how Buoso waits for his transformation. I don’t think these transformations are permanent because otherwise, they won’t have enough bodies to steal. Also, I think they steal each other’s bodies till eternity because that is their punishment. But in this canto, it makes it seem like these transformations are permanent.
In response to Zeus and Bilbo Baggins (11/3/08 7:20 PM)
I am also having a bit of trouble with the fourfould analysis. It seems to me like just rewording the same thing in four different ways. I think its pretty vague.
So far, I have filled out my chart using the following requirements:
Literal or historical- What the sinners actually did.
Ex: The fortune tellers claimed to have divine insight.
Political- What the sinners did to the law or the community.
Ex: The theives stole the substance of others, which is against the law.
Moral or psychological- How the sinner did something wrong morally or psychologically.
Ex: The flatterers took advantage of the weak minded, which was immoral because taking advantage of people is not good.
Spiritual- How the sin offends god, or the pilgrim soul. I'm not sure what a pilgrim soul is, but I thought it was something along the lines of the sould of a person that has been untainted or misled by sin.
Ex: The sins of the panderers and seducers goes directly against the Bible (God), and causes people to do something they would not have normally done, leading them to sin as well (pilgrim soul).
I'm sorry if I come across as vague. Since I'm unclear myself, don't use this as the law of the fourfold analysis; only use this as some suggestions.
Carmen
I agree with Zeus
Carmen
I agree with Zeus
In response to junie b. jones:
The symbolic retribution of the theives is that they either are bound with snakes around their bodies and hands, are pursued and bitten by reptiles so that they burst into flame, or must share their bodies with repiles/other sinners. The Five Noble Thieves received the last punishment and their transformations are not permanent because they must undergo this shapeshifting for all eternity, which is incredibly painful. Agnello (human) and Cianfa (reptile) must share their bodies, and this is pure torture because their forms are so different. I hope that helped answer your question!
To Sherlock: I've spent time thinking about the differences between the panderers and the seducers too. They are in the same area, so of course their crimes are rather similar and therefore difficult to differentiate. The dictionary definition of a panderer is one who: procures customers for whores (a pimp) and/or a person who serves or caters to the vulgar passions or plans of others. I think the spiritual implication of both panderers and seducers is that they lead others to sin (to stray from the light and reason of god.) In my opinion,the political aspect of the panderers and seducers is connected to the spiritual aspect because the sinners in this circle break governmental laws, but they break divine law b leading others to sin.
Does anyone else think it is interesting that Odyseus and Diomedes are in hell. I didn't know that the Romans believed that they are descendants from the Trojans. So they would probably share the Trojan point of view. I think it's funny how in Greek history Odyseus and Diomedes are made out to be great epic heros. Then in Trojan and Italian history, Ulysess and Diomede are cheap traitors. It seems that is common throughout the book, that you have to understand Dante is a Florentine and considered how he feels about therse people. When you consider that factor, it makes his depictions make a bit more sense.
To sherlock:
I also think its a bit unfair how Dante can just invent a story about the later years of Ulysses' life and use it as a basis to put him in hell. Makes one wonder how much of the other accounts of the sinners in hell can actually be believed.
In response to Luna Lovegood (3/11/08 7:18PM), Outside or previous to the Divine Comedy Dante was very involved in Florence. He was a politician. Up to 1300 Dante was one of seven elected officials running Florence. He was very proud of Florence. When the Black Guelfs overthrew his party, he and all other officials were exiled. I think once the pope took over Florence all the White Guelfs were seeing no bright future and their lives went to hell, literally. Even Dante began to venture toward hell. He found himself in the Dark Wood of Error. When all White Guelfs lost their beloved city to rebels they really had no positive way to turn. I think Dante was very proud of his city and there are sinners in every city and to incorporate a few for Florence just makes it easier for Dante to connect to the people in Hell. Its not we have seen a ton of people from Florence, it’s a big city and hell is a huge place lets remember there are a lot of people in Hell and only a few from Florence; that’s pretty good.
To: Spaceman spiff
I too think it is both interesting, yet quite frightening when we see familiar faces in hell, for which we would not think would belong there. Actually, it is quite aggravating to me to see sinners in hell for something that didn't cause to much pain. For example, the Violent Against Nature and Art, yes that was quite awhile ago. But even in the Cantos now, I still see ridiculous sins in the lowest levels of hell who capture who I feel aren't so guilty. OH! The Sowers of Discord, another example, what sin ( I know what sin by the way, its a figure of speech) is bad enough to have your limbs cut off for an eternity you yourself have only performed one wrongful sin. Doesn't it seem like you would serve a sentence in hell, like prison, or a time-out. I don't know but I almost feel bad for these sinners.
{Original}
Nobody may need to know this but just in case here is an explanation of the "grappling hooks" used by the demons upon grafters.
In modern times we think of a grappling hook as a three-pronged metal hook used to attatch to and climb things. BUT the imagery of the grapples always appears as pitchporks.(Anyone notice the pun)
The reason for this is because originally the grapples we know as pitchforks where once used as weapons. An example is the roman gladiators. Certain types og gladiators used weighted nets and pitchforks to trap then stab their opponent to death. And so as the battle wore on the gladiators would grapple with each other. So the pitchfork-like weapon used became known as a grappling hook, literally a fighting hook.
Hope this helps someone and if not...oh well...at least you learned something!
I'm testing to see whether I fixed the dates.
(Original)
I don't really have exact lines, but i find it interesting that, though it is already stated in Ciardi's summary, that Dante blames Mohamet and Ali for the schism(split) between Christianity and Mohammedanism. Basically, I think that Mohammedanism is the Muslim religion. The Crusades took place near Dantes time, and they were over The Holy Land (Jerusalem). Catholics believed Muslims were to blame for the Schism in the Church after the Crusades, but that's not true. Like the worksheet Mrs. Tully gave us said, Dante shows his ignorance about this subject in this canto (XXVIII).
(Comment Post)
In Response to Hoshigaki Kisame
^10/3/08 11:24PM^
Yes, this is true that the line you wrote describes the fortune tellers. However, I don't think that all of them "lied" about seeing the future. I think that some probably did lie simply for attention, sort of like the modern day scandal of people who are truly gay amd those who are "gay" for the attention. But, I think there are others who actually believed that they were "gifted." They were brainwashed or simply delusional and weren't trying to deny there was a God or say that they were his equal, but just foolish. I think that this shows us the harshness of Dante. Though he makes his character (Dante the Pilgrim) have sympathy and seem to think that some of the sinners didn't belong in hell, it's inexplicably clear that Dante the Poet does not. He is cold and has very set ideas about the world and everyone in it. I think Dante should have a more open mind and gain a little more knowledge about some of the subjects he chooses to comment on. Dante is much too Mideval Christian (of course, because he lived during the Middle Ages and was Christian), who were very closeminded about a lot of thinks, to write a book about what real hell most likely looks like.
Re: Gaia
What I ment by 'lying' was that in Dante's view, only God could have the power to tell the future and therefore all fortune tellers were lying. But I remember hearing someone say something about how anyone could see the future but only God could tell the future. In this case, it would be against the bible to tell the future, especially for a price.
I find it interesting where Dante places the Evil Counselors. It almost seems like this circle was created for the sole purpose of putting enemies to Florence's heritage. Also they inhabitants of this bolgia seem to have been wise men, who made tricky, undermining and fraudulent decisions, which resulted in the misfortune of others. It is also interesting to see the way Odesseus is viewed by Dante.
In Canto XXXI, lines 31-33, "THey stand in the well from the navel down; and stationed round its bank they mount guard on the final pit of Hell." Why are the giants standin from just the naval down, why not fully out of the pits? Might this be another mockery on the baptismal fonts of Italian churches? And why does there need to be guards around the ninth circle of hell, everybody is frozen in the completely solid lake(of ice) none of the sinners could possibly move, let alone escape!?
In response to catwoman - I totally understand what you mean about the snakes reminding you of handcuffs. I was wondering if the author wanted to potray them that way or if he wanted them to take place of cop on the hunt of a fleaing suspect. If you think about it in present day terms, we know that most snakes have terrible eyesight and rely on their sense of smell to detect prey. We could think about these snakes as police dogs, who use the scent of the theif to track him or her.
In Response to Turtleheart ( March 12 at 5:04pm):
I definitely see the parallel between the giants being only up to their navel in ice. This comparison is hard to support however. Another possible explanation of this half burial of the giants is that they add to the atmosphere.Since dante mistakes them for towers, it adds to the "sinister" mood of the lower circles of hell. Furthermore, the giants are not necessarily getting being tortured, but they represent the wild and crazy tendencies of the creatures other than humans.
In Response to Turtleheart ( March 12 at 5:04pm):
I definitely see the parallel between the giants being only up to their navel in ice. This comparison is hard to support however. Another possible explanation of this half burial of the giants is that they add to the atmosphere.Since dante mistakes them for towers, it adds to the "sinister" mood of the lower circles of hell. Furthermore, the giants are not necessarily getting being tortured, but they represent the wild and crazy tendencies of the creatures other than humans.
I was reading the Canto's for CIrcle 8 and relized that there are no monsters guarding the 8th Circle. Is it becuase these people are tortured so much that they can't escape or do they not want to? I know that Geryon is the ride down to the 8th Circle but couldn't there be someway for these people to walk through the 9th Circle like Dante and Virgil are doing? Just wondering.
[Original]
"Whereat i turned and saw beneath my feet and stretching out ahead, a lake so frozen it seemed to be made of glass." ( Canto XXXII, line 22-24)
I understand that Cocytus is the ice in which the compound Fraud sinners are punished, although i do think it is some what of an oxymoron, and kind of ironic that ice is the punishment for the "worst" sinners. However, What color is the ice? If the ice is white, wouldn't the color white be associated with Heaven? Does this reflect Lucifer as once being a heavenly angel?
On Mrs. Tully's website she has an interactive map of hell. I was looking at that and it had Lucifer hanging upside down however in the book on page 265 the picture has Lucifer above the ice. Is he above or hanging below the ice? If he is below then the ice wouldn't freeze by Lucifer flapping his wings and freezing the tears of the 9th Circle people. How do htey get their eyes frozen closed by tears then?
RE: michaelangelo (March 12, 2008 6:30 PM)
In the book it says "...i saw his head towering above me! for it had three faces..." (34.37-8). I'm pretty sure that means that Satan had the lower half of himself in the ice. because it goes on to say "under each head two wings rose terrible...and he beat them so that three winds blew from him in one great storm" (34.46-50). But maybe the interactive website is right because in line 89 it says "i saw instead his legs projecting high into the air."
Original - I read in circle 8 that some thieves are bitten by the snakes and then burst into flame. I know they suffer from transforming from their ashes back into their body, but what does this represent allegorically. I was also monder if the sinners who were coiled by the snakes become constricted, die, and come bake to life or if they are just held there imobile for all eternity.
understand that Cocytus is the ice in which the compound Fraud sinners are punished, although i do think it is some what of an oxymoron, and kind of ironic that ice is the punishment for the "worst" sinners. However, What color is the ice? If the ice is white, wouldn't the color white be associated with Heaven? Does this reflect Lucifer as once being a heavenly angel?
RE: Flash
Hmm... Good Observation, that would be interesting if the ice was white. But I don't think, personally and I might be wrong, but I don't associate white as a heavenly color. I associate "light" as all heavenly, which gives everything a glare, or white sheen, also it would give it a gold sheen too. In the ninth circle of hell, I think it is far from heavenly light, or any "pure" light for that matter. So, I would think it is blue, that would give it a dark sense, signifying that it is a part of hell, and that it is cold. For example, the deepest parts of the ocean ( lower hell) , are the darkest parts ( "blue ice). I hope my opinion gives a visual.
RE: Aphridite 3/12/08 7:32
What i got from the snakes is that they were there to make the thieves torture worse. So the snakes are holding their hands, which while they were alive were their agents of crime. I don't believe that this kills them. The suffering of coming back to life is told in the intro to Canto 24. "And as the thief destroys his fellowman by making their substance diappear, so is he painfully destroyed and made to disappear, no once but over and over again." So they made people lose some of their identity so they lose their identity.
so sorry, I command copy peoples comments and put them on my blog so I don't have to scroll on the page back and forth, I just forgot to delete that one and I don't know how to get rid of that comment. Sorry again
In response to michelangelo:
There are a few reasons why it is unnecessary to have a monster guarding Cirlce 8. First, all throughout this circle there are demons torturing and watching over the sinners, guarding each idividual bolgia. Second, the sinners are trapped in there specific areas of the circle, so there is no chance of escape. The final reason is that the sinners probably have no desire to even try and escape since they are so wound up in there torture. Although there are probably many other reasons why there is no guard for Circle 8, these three seemed to be the most obvious to me. Hope this helped!!
In response to Flash March 12, 2008 6:28 PM
Dante describes the ice as resembling glass. My best guess is that the ice was close to clear. Also, Dante could see the distorted figures of the Judecca through the ice. This aside, in the Inferno, Dante hardly uses color for symbolic importance. (I can't even think of one example but there may be one.) His emphasis has been on symbolic actions.
To Junie B. Jones:
I would assume that their transformations are not permenant since if they couldn't change back, they wouldn't experience the painful transformation over and over and over again.
Sorry for responding to a post so far back but I didn't notice the other pages...
Original - I read in circle 8 that some thieves are bitten by the snakes and then burst into flame. I know they suffer from transforming from their ashes back into their body, but what does this represent allegorically. I was also monder if the sinners who were coiled by the snakes become constricted, die, and come bake to life or if they are just held there imobile for all eternity.
In response to Aphrodite,
well allegorically the snakes represent the reptillian nature of thievery's deception. The fact that the thieves burst into flames from the bite is explained in the prelude to Canto XXIV, "As the thief destroys his fellowman by making his substance disappear, so is he painfully destroyed and made to disappear." The fact that they are reformed is merely so that they may experience the pain over and over again.
To add on to what Luna Lovegood said in response to Flash,
I think you are right about color not being of much importance, and action being what is truly emphasized. I think that what Dante was symbolizing by stating that the ice was like glass was that while in life their intentions were fogged with treachery, now they are frozen in such clear ice for all to see.
To junie b. jones
I'm not sure whether the 5 noble thieves can change back,but most thieves will usually be reborn after they are burnt to ashes,well,they aren't reborn as humans, but as some form of monster since other thieves in bolgia 7 steal their bodies as part of the symbolic retribution
Re: Michelangelo (3/12/08 6:22PM)
To add to HelenofTroy's response,The reason that Dante and Virgil are able to just walk around hell is that Virgil is Human Reason and was able to surpass Minos and all the other monsters in Hell who try to stop them. Minos is the one who is able to assign everyone's eternal torment in Hell, so once they passed him they were able to roam freely. No one else has Human Reason guiding them, that is the main reason only Dante and Virgil are able to move about freely.
Also, does anyone know if Dante can be harmed inside hell? because it seems to me that every time he reaches an area where a demon can impale him with a spear, virgil tells him to take cover, so I was wondering if Dante can be harmed in hell
{Original} In Circle 8 i understand its supposed to be the sinner of fraud and malice. I definitely understand where the fraud is because every member of this circle committed some kind of fraud. but i don't understand where the sinners of malice are. no one really physically inflicted pain on others. Some may have caused others hard ship and tough livings but they never really hurt any one directly. So why would the sins of malice even be brought up if the sinners of malice are never written about?
re: frederic chopin
Dante can most likely be harmed in hell because he is still human, so he can still die a mortal death. Virgil hides him from all of the monsters so he can't get hurt, which would probably mean that he can die.
hope that helps..
re: thing 2
Malice is not directly harming another person, it is just ill will or the intention to do evil, so it makes sense that the fraudulent are in fact the sinners of malice as well. When they are deceitful they they are intending to do evil to another person.
To flash:
I dont think the white ice has anything to do with Lucifer's old allegiances. I actually think that the ice forms from the all of the tears the sinners shed in hell, and then Lucifer waves his wings and creates cold air that freezes them into ice.
To speaker of the dead:
1. We have to work on our project this weekend.
2. I also find myself with a bit of pity towards the sinners. This may sounds a little blasphemic but i think God is overreacting a little. These punishments really seem over the top and I really think after having a couple of limbs chopped off in hell you would learn your lesson.
RE: Spaceman Spiff
OHHHH! OK, I think I get it. I take back what I said the ice being blue. Clearly, because they are tears the ice will be clear or like glass. That makes sense, although it is still ice and sometimes ice is blue in dark areas. But clearly that is not in Dantes case. Ok, thank you for clearing that up for Flash and I. I also came up with the observation that it was blue from a developing game in one of our classes. They have red flames and what look like blue flames, but clearly it is not fire but ice.
Hey, does anyone know if the panderes and seducers are in the same bolgia? The diagram in the book makes it seem as they are seperated.
re: merlin re: thing 2
you're saying that each and every sinner guilty of fraud is also guilty of malice, which you're describing as intending to do evil upon another. (not meaning to use "a what" if query but..) what if someone is forging a signature on a check? isn't that person not attempting to harm or to "do evil upon," but solely trying to have a self-gain? That person is trying to get money for themselves. Though it seems just a matter of category, but isn't it having more as opposed to the other having less?
To peter pan:
I think even if you forge a signature, you can still cause malice. For instance, if you forge someones signature on a check, you can take money from their checking account.
To Peter Pan:
Don't forget that whoever is forging the signature is hurting the person whose signature they are forging by stealing money from them. It may not be a violent form of malice, but it is malice nevertheless.
RE: Spaceman spiff
1. Got it
2. text me that
3. BACK TO THE INFERNO BLOG
Yes, that is exactly what I thought, I stated that earlier in the blog. Clearly, it is not like prison, it is just plain torture. Every day after I read this, I am so fearful, and I literally count every sin I am doing during the day. Ha! (Gulp). It makes me feel like I have to become Catholic to repent my sins. But I think that was the goal of the church at the time. They have hell, which Dante provides gruesome punishments for what I call, "Lame" sins, and the church will use that to get people to become fearful, and I stress FEARFUL, of hell. So people will end up joining the church and go in to confession. Maybe not, but I think that Dante's tale could be a euphemism of hell, if I know the definition of euphemism. Im not sure. But the church has changed so much in the past. For example, I think it was Pope John Paul who accepted a theory of Galileo's. So, wouldn't that change hell? That is why I feel there is a non-existent hell. It is just like the media, everything they say, well almost everything they say is to put us in fear. Which will make us do what they tell us. Just like Dante's Inferno.
re: spaceman spiff
the panderers and seducers are i think technically in the same bolgia. I think its just that the panderers are near the outter wall and the seducers are near the inner wall. Considering the context of the panderers and suducers it seems appropriate that the panderers a.k.a. "pimps" though completely guilty of fraud and everthing, not being the actual umm... "blue collar" and being the "white collar" businessman to be on the outter, about 1/2 a degree better than the suducers, the "workforce" and "worker" in direct contact with the "claimsman" (sorry for bad wording)
(To:Junie B. Jones at: March 10, 2008 10:56 PM)
The thieves in circle eight are punished not just by snake bites and ash-ascension. The changing forms are also part of their punishment, which can be seen n lines 64-66, "The other two cried out as they looked on:/"Alas! Alas! Angello, how you change!/ Already you are neither two nor one!"". This is another example of divine retribution, as the thieves took others material things, transforming the stolen items into their own property. The snakes represent the act of thieving itself, for the art is reptilian in style. (reptilian meaning sneaky and silent)
To speaker of the dead:
1. Cool
2. I did
3. Ive gotten the feeling that Dante wrote the Infernoo just put his political enemies and rivals in pain and suffering just for the hell of it. (haha, get it? just for the hell of it...)
i would just like to congratulate spaceman spiff, xan, speaker for the dead, and myself; for this record of 4 posts in the last 3 minutes before 9 (even though right now it says 10) on wednesday night
Times are off, posting at 9:04, not 10.
Ok, i just got cheated by the clock. I posted that bulletin at 9:58 and it said i posted it at 10:01. LAME
To adam:
Ok thanks, thats a good explenation. Hopefully that will help on the quiz tomorrow.
To peter pan:
Hooray procastinators!
That took skill
(re: Peter pan March 12, 2008 9:51 PM)
Your question of sin is a good one. However, the lower hell (sins of leopard) are sins of fraud. Forging a check is obviously fraud, but Dante takes it an extra step because banking was a major part of life in Florence. (thats where he was born, right?)
In cicle 8 bolgia 6 the hypocrites on page 199 lines 49-51 " when on the height we had just left, the fiends beat their great wings. but now they gave my guide no cause for fright. These lines to me , gives me the thought that even the fiends as strong and terrible as they are, because they are in hell they are also restricted from other places. So in a way everyone in hell is punished in a way. Any opinions?
TO thing 2,
I would think that circle 8 contains malice because when fraud is done to a person it can damgage the individual mentally but not physically. So in that case it can cause people to commit suicide, murder others or other insane acts of violence. So because malice comes after fraud they can be put together i would think thats why.
:[ youth group ran late...
What's the symbolic retribution for the thieves turning into ash??
REALLY SORRY IF I REPEATED SOMEONE didn't feel like reading through 80-some comments
RE: mrs.Dalloway and Sherlock
The Seducers and Panderers are also considered sinning for the planning/and doing of pre-marital sex (that's a sin)
This is REALLLLYYY random but my catechism teacher said that playing pokemon is kinda like a sin...is it the 'Mild Cartoon Violence' in it that can be considered sinful?? someone please give me some insight.
...for that mrs.dalloway comment, I was refering to the one posted on: March 11, 2008 9:23 PM
my bad...
Totally Random, but I find it interesting that in canto XXI, the leader of the demons, Malacoda, tells the other demons to lay off of Virgil and Dante and escort them to the next Bolgia. The interesting thing is is that the Prefix of his name is "Mala" which in Spanish and I think Italian, but definately spanish means "Bad". Yet Malacoda almost looks like he looks out for Virgil and Dante, would this be ironic? Spaceman spiff, I know you can help me with this one.
RE: Speaker of the Dead
I'm no spaceman, but according to my trusty side-kick dictionary.com the root word of coda is: coda
1753, from L. cauda "a tail."
...so could his name mean 'bad-tail'. That would make sense since all of the other demons have weird names like that one. So in my opinion, I do not think it's ironic.
WOOOPS! Nevermind, haha I just read Canto XXIII, yes, Malacoda is a great name for the demon.
Junie B. Jones-
I am not completely positive, but I do not think that the transformation is permanent because then the reptiles would have to remain within the sinner forever. The reptiles also have the job of hitting the sinners and making the part they hit disenegrate. The sinners then go throungh the painful process of growing that part back.
I find it interesting that souls are punished forever for mistakes made in a 70 year period. Does Dante believe that all souls are initially good but through society we turn bad? There is the whole issue of free will, so are the souls in hell those who misused their free will? I get that repenting mistakes gets you into heaven, but where does the moral line fall? And what's up with Original Sin? It has to do with Adam and Eve, but what does that mean for the rest of us? The whole "being punished forever" thing for mistakes you may have made doesn't seem right. But there is the whole "I'm looking at this from a modern perspective and not from Dante's time" which I mentioned in an earlier blog. This whole theology behind mistakes, errors and sin is confusing. Didn't the new testimant have stuff like forgiveness and "love thy neighbor"? These laws are great for people, but when God punishes people eternally for a sin that they committed, that means that God doesn't follow the same rules that Jesus taught in the bible. Doesn't that sound a little contradictory?
Scratch my last comment,
like Mrs. Tully said in class today:
since Lucifer is in the center of the Earth (according to Dante), from one side, you'd see his head, and from the other his legs.
In response to Adam: I think that much of Christian dogma at Dante's time was contradictory and I think much of Christian dogma remains contradictory. About the rules that Jesus preached in the bible; there is both the old testament and the new testament. In the old testament, Jesus and many of the biblical figures were far more eye for an eye than turn the other cheek. The thing about theology (in my opinion) is that it is simply an extension of the human psyche. Just as human consciousness and thought processes evolve, theology evolves because theology isn't external information that comes to people and is recorded, it comes from inside people. A group of people wrote the bible just as Dante set pen to paper and created a series of circles of hell. This is turning into a ramble, so forgive me. The point is: Dante's work (like any religious masterpiece) fills the human need for faith in something and rules to follow. Humanity seems so desperate for these things, that we lose our value of truth and logic in the process. This human pattern was present in Dante's time and it certainly is alive and well now. hmmm...do you understand what I'm saying? Did that make any sense?
yeah, actually it did. thanks. But I get the feeling that this is actually a story thats meant to be a great literary text, instead of a theological record. Now that I look back on all of the Cantos, this seems to make more sense.
to Junie b. Jones:
I believe the transformations are not permanent because the punishment of thieves is to never be able to own something, because they stole from others in life. Maybe it's more painful for the 5 Noble thieves, because they were noble and probably didn't need to steal. That is if "noble" is in the sense of the wealthy and upperclass, and not the "noble", like that was a noble cause...
What are your theories about why Bertrand de Born holds his head at an arm's length away? Was there an underlaying significance when it said "it raised the head at arm's length toward our bridge / the better to be heard..." (28.128-29)?
Carmen 8:20 PM 3/15/08 Response to junie b. jones, 3/15/08 8:45 PM
The sowers of discord reside in bolgia nine in circle eight. Within this group, there are three classes: religious discord, political discord, and discord between kinsmen. Bertrand De Born resides with the sowers of discord between kinsmen. His appearance has to do with symbolic retribution. Bertrand’s sin was that he advised a young king to rebel against his father. So, he separated father from son. For this reason, his head is separated from his body. I hope this helps.
Does anybody know the basic story that's alluded to in Canto 30 of how Potiphar's wife was a false witness? All it says in the explanation is that she bore false witness against Joseph. Which Joseph is this?
I find it kind of strange that although Myrrha’s sin was one of lust, which should put her in the Second Circle of Hell, she is located in the Eighth Circle of Hell. This is because she kept her true identity secret in following lust, therefore performing a sin of fraud. Dante’s patterns of punishment tend to punish people by the greatest sin they performed. However for Dido this is not true. Dido committed suicide because of love but was put with the Lustful rather than with the Suicides. So, this could imply that sinners are punished according to what their story most symbolizes. Any ideas?
In response to Junie B. Jones (March 15, 2008 11:41 PM)
The Joseph that Potiphar's wife accused of rape is the Joseph in the Old Testament. His story is told in the Book of Genesis.
{ORIGINAL}
Upon further reading of The Inferno I realized that Bertrand de Born is treated differently than Mohamet. Mohamet is described as having "Between his legs all of his red guts hung with the heart, the lungs, the liver, the gall bladder, and the shriveled sac that passes shit to the bung" (XXVIII, 25-27). As one can see, this is pretty gory and disgusting. On the other hand, Bertrand is described as holding his "...severed head by its own hair, swinging it like a lantern in his hand" (XXVIII, 121-122). I found this interesting, especially since Bertrand is punished just a gruesomely as Mohamet. This obviously represents Dante's extreme views of Islam.
Bernard de Born appears in CantoXXVIII. He appears to Dante as "a body without a head, that moved along like all the others in that spew and spill." (119-120) I know that Bertrand was the one who cut the schism between Henry and Henry II, but how does that impact him on a spiritual level?
Ok so im doing my essay on theft..(ditch 7 of circle 8)..and i was wondering.. other than the fact that Vanni Fucci is a bad guy and all, why does Dante act as if he knew him personally..and why does Fucci feel emberrassed when he sees him?
To Junie B. Jones:
The five noble thieves change conntinuesly, just as the other thieves, sometimes as creatures, mostly snakes and rarely themselfs.
Also..who are Agnello and Cianfa???
And what ditch do they have to do with in Circle 8???
Thankz
achilleezz
TO cassius,
The sinner who is nailed to the ground is Caiaphas the chief sinner of the hypocrites.He was the one who counseled people to crucify Jesus and so in return in hell he is also crucified and will suffer the worlds hypocrisy as Jesus suffered the sin of all in the world. He is also being stepped on by people who walk by.
-To Adam-
I still don't fully understand this fourfold analyses but i'll take a stab at this.
I beleive that on a spiritual level, Bernard de Born, by breaking up fahter and son, might've broken their love, which is god. I'm not positive if this is right but hopefully because i'm doomed if its not haha.
Actually you know what, do you think anyone could help me understand this whole fourfold analyses its all so confusing for me and it hurts my brain haha
In response to Kakashi's response to Cassius,
The weight of the world's hypocrisy is the people walking over him, as they are the hypocrites of the world.
To: >>Volsung<<
You said it was Dante's view of Islam that caused him to describe Mohamet in gorier detail. Maybe, but Dante actually has a conversation with Bertrand and so his sufferage is made more apparent. Unlike Mohamet who is only seen.
You know what fascinates me?
The Hypocrites, and how one person Caiphus was made to bear the weight of all the world's hypocrisy...
I wonder.
If someone worse than him comes along, would that person be crucified in place of him, be crucified aong with him, or not be crucified at all?
What does everyone ense think?
Just a thought to throw out there.
-kaitlyn :)
RE: kaitlyn
In my opinion i don't think there is anything worse than a person who condemns the son of God. lol.
Carmen 8:43 PM 3/17/08 Original post
“I had a good grip on his hair; already / I had yanked out more than one fistful of it...” (Canto XXXII, lines 103-104)
“Now filthy traitor, say no more!” (Canto XXXII, line 109)
Dante’s loyalty to his political party, the Guelphs, can be evidently seen in circle nine. Circle nine is divided into four rounds. Dante’s savagery towards Bocca Degli Abbati can be seen in the second round, those who did treacherous to country. He is violent with this sinner especially because Bocca betrayed the Guelphs. We can also see the gradual change in Dante’s heart. Earlier, he pitied some sinners. Now, we can see Dante’s decreasing ability to pity the punishments of the sinners. Also, his loyalty can be discerned whenever he comments on Pope Boniface VIII, whom he detests.
"And this gross Fiend and Image of all Evil who made a stairway for us with his hide is pinched and prisoned in the ice-pack still."
Dante is talking about Satan, the very anti-climatic ruler of Hell. Satan is trapped in ice upside down, very un-befiting of a ruler. Satan is usually percived as a heartless monarch of sinners surrounded by flame, but ice is shown here to represent the lack of love.
(Canto XXXIV, lines 121-123)
Eto... Sorry... Eh heh heh...
To: menedict Bias:March 17, 2008 7:16 PM
Dante's conversation with Bertrand gives the reader an understanding of why he is there. Mohamed(not mohamet) was only described from a far away view, as if there was no explanation was needed. In a way, he insults Mohamed by doing this and gives the reader a biased point of view towards Islam.
What was the symbolism, that was mentioned in the prelude to the final Canto, of climbing through the hair of Satan's legs to reach the tunnel that leads to Purgatory?
over three hundred comments. Congratulations to us all!
to junie b. jones:
The symbolic retribution of Dante and Virgil climbing down satan's legs is that satan even though you would think he would be a monstrous beast and the worst thing in hell, he turns out be feeble and weak, encased within the icy central of Cocytus. Ableling dante and Virgil to just scurry down his body, with him unaable to shake them off even. If he had the power we all would predict he would have, then they wouldn't have been able to do such a feat. This shows the weakness of Satan and perphaps the power of God over those who spite him.
to volsung:
I think that Dante portrayed Mohamet as gory, because he was Christian, and the entire trilogy cetners of christianity and the punishments if you go against God. And even though they are basically the same thing and share the same God, Dante perhaps sees this as a sin for I believe that it was looked upon as Christinaity was above every other religion and therefore portrays mohamet as lower and sinful.
Also to add to that, I think Dante put the Pagans (people who aren't christianity) near the top of hell, due to them not knowing Christianity and I guess never knowing/unable to find the light of God..? But as a whole the book is saturated with chrisitanity and as the main idea of the book: Heaven or Hell, You know?
How can Archbishop Ruggieri's actions be interpretted on a moral level? And does anyone else find it curious that Ugolino is placed in Antenora even though the focus of his story seems to be on Ruggieri's betrayal and Ugolino's possible cannibalism? Why was treachery to country worse than treachery to family?
After reading the inferno, when they go to meet satan at the center not much really happens. It talks about who hes eating/punishing, but it never really tells what he looks like and his origins or what not. Anyone know more on Dis, or maybe i just missed some good stuff when reading? thanks.
To adam (again) About the father/son break up thing: In terms of the spiritual level, I think one of Dante's main assertions is that the role of humans is to create with and organize god's universe. By breaking up the sacred bond between father and son, Bertrand did the opposite of creating and allowing for sanctity. He desecrated something. hmmm. Just a thought that you might consider including in your essay.
To adam (again) About the father/son break up thing: In terms of the spiritual level, I think one of Dante's main assertions is that the role of humans is to create with and organize god's universe. By breaking up the sacred bond between father and son, Bertrand did the opposite of creating and allowing for sanctity. He desecrated something. hmmm. Just a thought that you might consider including in your essay. secrated
response to kakashi March 18, 2008 10:38 PM
Satan is in Hell because he wanted to be as powerful as God. Since he wanted power and control, in Hell, he is frozen in ice and completely helpless. He has only the power to further punish himself. In his attempt to escape his fate, he merely freezes the ice more. I don't know much about Dante's Satan either. Does anyone know how he specifically differs from the Satan Christianity describes?
In Dante’s version of Ulysses, Ulysses’s quest for the “experience of the world beyond the sun” (Inf.26.109) is what eventually causes his death. This quest on the part of Ulysses could signify an attempt to escape the reality of his sins and his own conscience. Even the flames that cover him hide his identity as he too conceals his conscience. He abandons and persuades
{original}:
{original}:
(sorry about that last post)
"the one who dangles down from the black face is Brutus: note how he writhes without a word" (34:65)
Why does Brutus do this? Is it because he knew what he did wrong? or is it a pride type of thing?
In response to Junie B. Jones: The transformations of the Five Noble Thieves are ever changing. Meaning, they steal the human form of their comrades and that just goes back and forth. Symbolically, they wanted to steal the substance of their fellow countrymen so this is their punishment as well. Their souls will forever keep changing from human to reptile and back.
In response to Thing 1:
I believe that Brutus does not talk because he accepts his punishment and the consequences for murdering Caesar along with the other conspirators. In the end of Julius Caesar, he stated that he was happier killing himself than murdering Caesar. To me, it seems like he acknowledges what he has done.
Sorry about my last post by the way.. it's a response to a much older post. My browser went wacko D:
In response to chihiro ogino (March 11, 2008 1:48 PM), in The Inferno, it says that Virgil had his spirit summoned by one farther down in Hell. This is how he was able to move around in Hell, but usually spirits can't move because they all committed a sin and are punished eternally for that sin. To be able to move would make the whole point of being punished completely pointless because everyone would move to the top, or the less harsh punishments.
Why did Dante make the end of The Inferno so anticlimactic? It seems to just kind of end with no real excitement. I know he has three other books, so is his last one more of an exciting ending?
In response to Zeus (March 19, 2008 7:05 PM)
The end of The Inferno is most likely anticlimactic because Dante wants to show how Satan isn't all-powerful as he is reputed to be. Dante portays him as being a weak and powerless figure: just another punished sinner in Hell. Dante probably believed that Satan doesn't deserve glorification.
For my essay, I'm interested in anyone else's opinions on Ugieri and Ruggieri. Our translator says, quite expressly, that Dante did not mean to convey that Ugieri was a cannibal. However, other translators and commentators, including ms. tully if I remember right, have said otherwise. Based on the implications of their symbolic retribution and the gist of the language --as the very nature of a translation renders exact language imprecise-- is Ugieri a cannibal? Or merely a traitor to his compatriots?
Does anyone have any examples other than Betrand de Born and Muhammed and my own Ruggieri for examples of mutilation of the body being used as an allegory for splitting up families or religions or states?
To young werther on your first question on if Ugolino is a cannibal:
Ugolino, according to Ciardi's summary at the beginning of the canto, is not a cannibal. according to Ciardi's summary, ugolino gnaws on ruggieri because ruggieri caused ugolinos starvation. hes saying since ruggieri caused the starvation, he will be ugolinos food for the rest of eternity. on many other accounts, ugolino is considered a cannibal because after his sons died, he ate them. if this is what dante intended then the symbolic retribution would be that since ugolino had no control and wanted to eat his sons for his hunger, he will get what he wants by eating ruggieri who caused him to be in that situation.
whether hes a cannibal or not is dependent on what interpretaion you read
In response to: Young Werther (March 19, 2008 9:03 PM)(the times are still messed up by the way)
I think you have his name messed up "Ugolino" Ugolino is the guy chewing on Ruggieri's head. If that is who you were talking about, he was placed in the treachery against country because he was a guelph, and helped Ruggieri (a ghibelline) acquire castles in Pisa.
and then Ruggieri turned on Ugolino and locked him in the tower of hunger with 4 kids and grandkids. When they died, Ugolino ate them. and that's why he is eternally eating the back of Ruggieri's head.
Sorry, it took awhile to post, and someone had already answered the question
To young werther on your question on mutilation and factionalization:
Dante picked the characters he talked to very carefully. if you think very carefully, you can put a factionalization arguement to just about every character depending on their religious views, political views, etc. Farinata could be an example. even though he is in hell for being a heretic, denying christianity (splitting religion), he is also a ghibelline (splitting florence politically. idk if burning in a tomb fits your definition for mutilation of body but i think it should. these types of agruments can be made for many of the characters in this book.
Why are all the times on the bottom a hour ahead of real time?
To Young Werther:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugolino_and_Dante
Thought this might help a little to get a better picture.
To Zeus:
The ending of Inferno is anticlimactic, because if you were to read Paradiso, it ends with the climatic meeting with the three spheres of God. It sets a contrast of Satan and God.
(Original) "Bocca, what is it ails you? What the Hell's wrong? Isn't it enough to hear you bang your jaws? Must you bark too?"
I find it quite interesting how these souls are able to have normal conversations... they are in Hell. Frankly, it doesn't seem like they are suffering that much. At least in the ninth circle. It's supposed to be that the farther down you go, the more suffering is inflicted upon you, but these souls trapped in the ice don't seem to be completely blinded by torture. In other circles, such as circle eight, the souls seem to be in more pain.
To cassius:
Yes I completely agree with your statement. The souls of those who commited trachery against their kin or country, being frozen in ice should not be able to have rational conversations. Having these punishments is something that they should have to lament in their own mind for all eternity, not being able to vent their own sufferings to other people.
To Guido:
I don't really understand it. Some, even those in the horders and wasters, were to blinded by emotion (or busy?) to have conversations with Dante. It shocks me that anyone really can have intellegent conversation, but espically those in the deepest circle! These, if anyone, should be suffering more. Wow, that sounds cruel, but methinks it strange (haha, Shakespeare) that these are so... seemingly unaffected by their punishments.
While readign through the Inferno I found it interesting that Dante doesn't mention any women besides Farinota(sorry if I spelled that wrong). Is this because Dante didn't put any women in hell or did he think that all women were angels or something? I mean there were probably some women in the world at that time that were doing something bad. Just found that interesting and weird.
To Cassius:
That is exactly what I was thinking. Ice doesnt seem to be that painful unless you are in Judecca and completely submerged. The people in te first circle don't even have their eyes frozen shut with tears. It seems like Dante wasn't going from least punishemnt to worst, more like randomly putting groups in an order adn assinging them a punishment that fit their crime.
To Michaelangelo (5:00 P.M.):
I do think Dante had more than two women (Francesca and Myrrha) in Hell. I suppose he doesn't think most of their stories important enough or as impacting on the audience as the famous and epic stories of sinful men.
In response to Michelangelo (March 20, 2008 5:00 PM) and Junie B. Jones (March 20, 2008 10:05 PM)
Be sure to remember that actions of women in Dante's time were not nearly as publicized as those of men. The Church's view of women were that they were evil. This is because it was Eve who caused Adam to sin. So Dante most likely didn't see women as angelic. The problem with women doing epic things at Dante's time was that it didn't exist. At his time, women did little more than run the household and bear children.
Because the seasons are changing and the beginning of spring is upon us, I just thought I'd ask this: Does everyone agree that Dante's hell is made up of a series of separate microclimes that aren't remotely attuned to the seasonal rythms of the earth? I think this separation from natural patterns in terms of weather, season and climate is probably a symbol of sinners being out of touch with god's creation (earth) and thusly, god.
My guess about the time difference is that the blog server is based in a different time zone than we are. There is also the fact that we don't do day lights savings time.
When Dante and Virgil area in circle 9, on the frozen lake, Cocytus, are the sinners all just to there head in the frozen water or are some of them not as deep in the ice. The summary before the Canto says, "and here, fixed in the ice, each according to his guilt..." (Canto XXXII). I understand that as they progress down to the different divisions, the sinners are lower in the ice, but are there little sub-divisions?
When Dante and Virgil area in circle 9, on the frozen lake, Cocytus, are the sinners all just to there head in the frozen water or are some of them not as deep in the ice. The summary before the Canto says, "and here, fixed in the ice, each according to his guilt..." (Canto XXXII). I understand that as they progress down to the different divisions, the sinners are lower in the ice, but are there little sub-divisions?
For my essay, I am focusing on the Simoniacs, but I am having a hard time with the whole thing, but more specifically with the Moral and Psychological part. All I have is that it makes people believe that they have repented but they really have not. I don’t really know how to expand on that. Also for the spiritual part I don’t really understand what the paper Mrs. Tully gave us says? Help!?
Sorry did not mean to post it twice!
What is the point of Lucifer? It seems as though he is a figure that does nothing. He has no control over anything in hell. Is he just a sinner? If so, why is there all this build up? Dante goes further and further into hell getting more and more evil and grotesque. My attention was at it's peak when I got to Ugolino and Ruggieri. Then, it was just like "Oh well, I guess the book is over". I'm really wondering if there was something I missed about Lucifer. If not, then I think it was completely pointless for him to be in hell.
In response to mrincredible (3/24/08 1:19pm)
I think the moral aspect of the simoniacs is that they are messing with someone's faith. It is unfair to manipulate someone because of what they believe in religiously. In this case, they are taking advantage of the trust that is placed in them. To sum it up, they are abusing their power. Then spiritually, I believe that they are cheating the person of their religion. This is different from why I said it was morally wrong because this is denying a person a proper oppurtunity to be religous. The simoniacs don't say "Hey you, you can't believe in God" but they don't allow a person to worship in the "correct" manner. Hope that helps.
Carmen 9:35 PM, March 24, 2008 Response to michelangelo, 3/20/08 5:00 PM
I agree with volsung. Most of the sinners Dante converses with have ended up in hell for political reasons or they held political offices: Farinata, Count Guido Da Montefeltro, Pier Da Medicina, Bocca Degli Abbati, Count Ugolino, etc. Also, I believe you confused Farinata with someone else. He’s a war chief of the Ghibellines. Anyways, Dante did mention Thais, Dido, Francesca, Cleopatra, Myrrha, and Potiphar’s wife. I guess these women were known for their sins, and therefore, they had to be placed in hell. Dante places more emphasis on the men because they held political offices and religious offices. Since women were believed to be inferior at Dante’s time, he didn’t really know any other sins committed by women.
The placement of Brutus and Cassius’s in the last circle of Hell seems disputable. They did murder Julius Caesar, but we never really find out whether or not the murder was for the “good of Rome.” But, Brutus and Cassius suffer a punishment slightly less harsh than Judas. Any ideas on this?
-Original-
I noticed something very interesting about the physical appearence of satan. He is described as being a hidious and ungainly. Yet, if the story is true, he was once an angel. Aren't angels supposed to be lordly in look? How come satan doesn't look like the angels of heaven? Did he once, or was he transformed during his fall from heaven? Maybe Dante the Poet used that appearence for his book, not thinking of how he became that way. Any suggestions?
In response to menidict bias:
If Satan was in fact "lordly in look", he probably did transform once he was in Hell. I am sure that all of the sinners in Hell once looked much better in life than they do in Hell. So I am guessing that he did change because it would not be very threatening to se a beautiful angel in Hell. If I am incorrect, anyone please feel free to correct me.
response to mercutio
Yes he was kmost likely changed but the real question I am asking is why and by who? Any body able to answer that?
In response to ThetisTheGoddess:
First of all, I do not believe that there are many exceptions in Hell. Whether Brutus and Cassius thought that they were killing Caesar for the "good of Rome" or not, it was a murder nonetheless, which is a sin. Also, I do not think that stabbing Caesar was for the "good of Rome". Brutus just rationalized the fact that it was a murder so far that it became a good idea in the conspirators' minds.
I'm not really sure about the spiritual analysis on the hypocrites, but I think their main representation is greed, because they try to disguise themselves to the rest of the world, shown in retribution by the hoods over their eyes, but that is only a guess, I can't fully get the concept.
So while finishing the reading of Inferno I was kind of confused about Circle 9. Why did Dante name all fo Circle 9 Cocytus? Does it have some meaning.
Also i understand why he named the 1st round Caina and the 4th round Judecca. What do the other two rounds names mean?
At one website I was reading to make the game it said that Ptoleme(sorry if i spelled that wrong, i am having typing and spelling issues) was like a sea captain but the book says that he killed his father in law. Which one is correct(i would assume the book since we are readign it but just checking.
What kind of symbolism do the monk robes hold, like the ones worn by the "Benedictines at cluny" (Canto XXIII, line 59) and now worn by the hypocrites?
Mr Incredible (march 24, 1:08)
So what I understood from everything that I have read is that some of the sinners have their heads above ice and then as Dante and Virgil move closer to Satan the people seem to sink lower into the ice. So kind of like sub-divisons as the heads depth into the ice sets each round apart but not defined like Circle 8. So i guess no there are not sub divisons. Hope this helps.
In response to Turtleheart (March 25, 2008 6:38 PM)
The symbolism in the Hypocrite's robes is their appearance. On the outside it looks golden and pure, a good thing. The inside is lead, which is heavy, and definitely a bad thing. In life, the Hypocrites passed as holy (gold) while underneath they had to carry around their guilt (lead). Both metals are heavy, so they are punished by essentially getting what they wanted. The robes are Cluny monk robes because the Benedictines at Cluny were "...especially ample and elegant." (Ciardi 203). In other words, the Cluniac monks abused their holy offices by being elegant, just like the sinners in Hell and their robes.
{ORIGINAL}
In Canto XXX, Dante seems intrigued by the arguments of Master Adam and Sinon the Greek. Normally, Dante is only interested in the sinners if it seems that he would be tempted by them. This case is somewhat different despite the fact that Virgil must urge him away. Dante doesn't seem to be tempted by the two Falsifiers as he did Francesca. He does not pity them. Would there be any other reason for him to show interest?
"so within the fosse/ only those flames, forever passing by/ were visible, ahead, to right, to left;/ for though each steals a sinner's soul from view/ not one among them leaves a trace of the theft." (Canto 26, lines 39-42) I understand that the Evil Counselors were those who gave advice that they knew would lead to something bad, abusing their influence. What I am a little unclear on is the symbolism behind their punishment. They are trapped behind veils of fire, but why is this significant?
Carmen 6:32 PM, March 25, 2008
Response to thetisthegoddess, 3/25/08 3:34 PM
Judas suffers more than Cassius and Brutus. Judas’ head is inside Satan’s mouth, while Cassius and Brutus have their feet inside Satan’s mouth. I do believe that Brutus and Cassius suffer more than they need to. Since Rome is a sovereign city, Caesar was a sovereign ruler. Dante probably believed that Caesar was the perfect symbol of secular government, just as Christ was the perfect symbol of religion. This shows Dante’s belief that the church and the state play important roles. According to Dante, Brutus and Cassius destroyed that ideal symbol of government.
HelenofTroy said...
"so within the fosse/ only those flames, forever passing by/ were visible, ahead, to right, to left;/ for though each steals a sinner's soul from view/ not one among them leaves a trace of the theft." (Canto 26, lines 39-42) I understand that the Evil Counselors were those who gave advice that they knew would lead to something bad, abusing their influence. What I am a little unclear on is the symbolism behind their punishment. They are trapped behind veils of fire, but why is this significant?
March 25, 2008 7:24 PM
Helen of troy(march 25, 7:24)
I understand where you are getting confused from as I am still a little unclear. However the intro to the Evil Counselors is somewhat helpsul. Ciardo says "worked in hidden wys, so they are stolen from sight and hidden in the great flames which are their own guilty consciences." So I am thinking that this means that since they worked hidden from society that they are hidden forever from the eyes of other people. This being said I don't understand why Ulysses and Diomede are in the Evil Counselors.
I am so sorry about the answer above. I copied the question to answer and then never deleted it. Again sorry. The answer starts after the big space if anyone was wondering. One quesiton. If the Evil counselors abused god's gifts hidden from society then why are Diomede and Ulysses in this group?
Response to michelangelo (March 25, 2008 7:37 PM)
I agree with what you said about the symbolic retiribution. But to add on to that, I think when Ciardi says "they stole from God" (Ciardi pg 220) he is talking about the misabuse of their gift. Since they didn't appreciate the gift of life and a mind the "stole" it. I don't exactly like how he used stole, it kind of through me off but it provides a connection to their symbolic retribution. Also, I definetly think Ulysess and Diomede fit right in with the evil counsellors. They were both Greeks and we know that Dante favored Troy. Remember Ulysees had the idea of the Trojan horse and think Diomede captured that Trojan spy and got information out of him. Their ideas were tricky and malicious to Dante and he probably wanted a reason to include Greeks in hell but thats just what I think. I hope I understood/answered your question!
In Response to thing 1 (ps I like your screen name)
March 11, 2008 3:34 PM
Sorry this is kind of late. First, grafters basically cheat people. They may agree to perform a service and fall through. They also supplemented their income by taking bribes. Next, I think the spiritual level of the flatteres is that they can't be trusted. They fool people into thinking they are something better than what they truely are. But, you can fool god. He knows what you are truely feeling or thinking. God can clearly see if you are being honest or tricking someone. Ultimatley, there is no escape from him. This may also apply to a certain extent to some other sinners. However, in my opinion I don't think a flattery is that big of a deal. I mean it is being viewed as more evil than murder. I guess it's just a change in the times.
Throughout The Inferno, there were constant references to Pope Boniface and all the sins he committed. While I was reading, I realized that he could fit into almost any circle, considering each of his different sins. Why then did Dante place him only in the third Bolgia in circle eight with the simoniacs? It says in the notes on page 172 "[Pope Nicolas, the chief sinner] is awaiting the arrival of his successor, Boniface VIII, who will take his place in the stone tube..." I know Dante hated Boniface, and he had the freedom to place him in any part of Hell he wanted. Why did he not punish him more, lower in Hell?
Dante did put Pope Boniface 8th in the third bolgia because it is much more humiliating to the Pope politically to have Dante anticipate his fate in hell as abusing his church office. (XIX, 49-50) "are you there already, Boniface? Are you there already?" He goes on to talk about Boniface bleeding mary dry of gold and money. If you think about it, the text would be distributed to everyone and they would all know that the Pope is in Dante's hell. That doesn't look good for his reputation.
RE: Zeus
Well, that is a good point. Dante could have put him anywhere for any punishments, but it probably would not have mattered. For example, the sin committed relates to their retribution, so for every sinner their retribution is the worst they could get, so for Pope Boniface, any of the punishments would have done well for him considering all his sins. Technically, every sin's retribution for the sins's he made would have had the same effect on him as the rest of the sins. So any other retribution would not have been worse for him. If that makes any sense, even I am getting confused.
I actually was typing my comment while adam replied, I like his response better than mine, it actually makes much more sense to me. Yes, I could see that now how it would humiliate Pope Boniface since he is in Dante's hell.
thank you.
uh, sorry, but why does the devil only get like a brief page in description when he's the center of hell?
In Dante's inferno, the devil is not actually the center of attention. True, he is the "center" of hell, but he is described in a slightly comical sense, (XXXIV, 73-75) "and seized the shaggy coat of the king demon; then grappling matted hair and frozen crusts from one tuft to another, clambered down." The description of an all-powerful demon lord falls apart as Dante and Virgil climb down Satan's leg hair and get to purgatory.
In Response to Michaelangelo and Sherlock
I agree with you guys. Michaelangelo, I feel like Ulysees and Diomede belong in with the evil Councelors because they abused god's hidden or secret gift. It is almost like a special talent God gave to them. For example, Ulysses had a great knowledge of everything from one side of the world to the next. He was also clever. So, he gathered his brilliant information that he knew and became very deceitful by building the Trojan Horse. Which then caused many deaths of children, men and women of Troy. Considering Dante liked Troy, Ulysses really pissed him off. Ulysses used his gift of brilliance given to him by God to bring upon a massacre.
To adam:
I agree. I think the fact that Dante makes the devil seem so comical is to give him a lowly appearance compared to God. Hes showing how God is much more mighty and powerful than Satan, and he uses that funny appearance to demonstrate that.
I have a question
Why are there so many punishments for the Falsifiers, I mean, My buddies and I were playing a board game today and the same question kept popping up. Name the punishments for the falsifiers. Also, What were the falsifiers sins. I heard, but still am confused, that the sins for the falsifiers were harsh, so how would the symbolic retributions, whatever they are, relate to the sins.
Woo Hooo! MADE IT BY 9!
To speaker of the dead:
Wasn't Ulysses actually in hell for that story Dante made up? Dante told the story that after returning to Ithica, he convinced a group of men to be his crew on a trip, and thn took them to their demise at Mt. Purgatory.
To zeus:
I believe Boniface was placed in the simoniacs because that was the sin he was most well known for. Everyone knew Boniface often sold church offices to his friends and sold indulgences, so people reading Dante's book would believe his justification for putting him in hell.
To Carmen:
I agree, but i think Judas suffers more simply because that was as bad a sin as they get. Betraying the son of god is definately worse than betraying a Roman leader.
crap...
i thought the weblog was over last week...
I know Inferno says that the grafters are stuck in boiling pitch. What is pitch? Is it tar?
To Spiff:
As far as I know, pitch is a resin from coniferous trees (8th grade CAN be helpful, it seems), but basically it's a dark, sticky, thick, and smelly substance, like tar. Pretty much, it is tar, except I think pitch is made from tar. It's also waterproof, in case you care...
Also to Spiff, a couple comments back:
I don't think that Satan was meant to be comical, so much as he was meant to be portrayed as the opposite of what he was in heaven. As you may know, he was beautiful then and, when he fell, he was made hideous. I think that's what the haunch hair was meant to be... punishment, rather than included for comedy.
Carmen 9:44 PM 3/25/08 Original post
“is Judas Iscariot, he who kicks his legs / on the fiery chin and has his head inside.” (Canto XXXIV, lines 62-63)
I noticed the similarity of the punishment between the Simoniacs and Judas. The Simoniacs reside in the holes of Bolgia 3. Their legs stick out of the ground and are in fire. Also, Judas has his legs sticking out and his head in Satan’s mouth. I know that Judas committed the most treacherous sin, but why is his head particularly, instead of his arms or something, in Satan’s mouth? Maybe, Judas committed a sin similar to the Simoniacs, but I’m not sure.
in Response to the questioning appearance of Satan:
I think Satan's purpose is not so much to have him opposing God in all aspects, but i think the idea is that he is a sinner also. He experiences punishment for his sin and his denial of God's love. So possibly Dante's lackluster description is a reflection of his thoughts and underwhelming interest in Satan. Dante's idea was to evaluate his soul which he thought was lost at the beginning of The Inferno , so this description of Satan could show his increasing believe and tendency toward God and want to God's guidance.
In response to Cassius (MArch 19th, 2008 10:23pm)
i know this question has already been answered but i think that the reason the sinners of the eighth and ninth circles, or even earlier can talk is for Dante to express his views about the lower sins. Dante uses people, their conversations, and setting to dis[lay his emotions and thoughts about Hell. If the sinners didn't talk it would be nearly impossible to get a really good feel for Dante's growth as a character etc. So i don't think it's so much that they don't suffer, but Dante is using them as a means to communicate by.
In Response to turtleheart(March 25, 2008 6:29 PM)
The souls of Bolgia 6 are trudging along in a circle, clothed in capes lined with lead making them very heavy. However, on the outside the capes are beautiful and covered with gold. This is because the Hypocrites outward appearance shined brightly and seemed holy but underneath all of that they are dishonest and must bare the weight through all of eternity.
In response to Carmen (March 25, 2008 10:45 PM), I think Judas's head was in Satan's mouth because the head is the place of all thought and reason. Judas committed his crimes because of corrupted reason, conscience, and will, all of which are located in the head. It's just another example of symbolic retribution.
(Original) "And this gross Fiend and Image of all Evil who made a stairway for us with his hide is pinched and prisoned in the ice-pack still" (XXXIV.121-23).
I just thought that this was an awesome sentence. It means a lot, explaining how Satan was great and terrible, how he will be imprisoned for all eternity. It tells how Satan is the final step in the long journey, and how he suffers, and it has a certain air about it, an air of timelessness, emptiness. It's thought provoking.
In the last Bolgia of Circle 8, there are the falsifiers. I think that I understand what the Alchemists, Evil Impersonators, and the Counterfeiters punishment is, but what about the False Witnesses? Are they just immobile and diseased? Also, I don’t really understand how there punishment is relevant to their sin of corrupting society by falsifications.
I know that there are differernt kinds of Sowers of Discord, for example religious and kinsmen sowers. My question is are they all puished the same way, by the demons hacking at them with swords, or is there some sort of special treatment. Same goes with the falsifiers, I understand that the evil impersonators have a different punishment from the alchemists, is this correct?
Why is Satan only to his waist in ice? He is a sinner, who is Treacherous to their masters, so shouldn't he technically be completely incased in the ice? I guess that would make the whole effect of him having the 3 men, Judas, Brutus, and Cassius, in his 3 mouths, but then couldn’t he be incased to his neck or something. And then when they are climbing down Satan’s back, why is that symbolic to anything?
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